Thread: 454 build - what intake and cam ?

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Originally Posted by ceejay

The numbers on that build look good. specially with the small 222 cam where the torque is prominent at the low and mid revs.
My big heavy 67 Impala, fully kitted out as a stock car with AC and all, will need the torque low down to move it hurriedly through city traffic.
That AFR head has 113cc chambers and my current 781s have 115cc chambers.
Could I possibly build my engine now, with that cam (they used the same intake as what I am planing on using) and use my heads with the pistons to 9.5:1 then later on if I feel more performance is needed, go to those AFR heads. The compression ratio will still be in the correct range.
What do you think techinspector1 ?

OK, with a 4.300" bore, 4.000" stroke, zero deck, Fel-Pro 1017-1 head gasket, 115cc iron chambers and pistons with a 15cc pop-up, your static compression ratio would be 9.62:1 and the motor should operate detonation-free on 91 octane pump gas, particularly with the tight 0.039" squish/quench afforded by the zero deck and 0.039" compressed gasket thickness.

With all same except 109cc chambers (non-cnc AFR chambers), SCR would be 10.12:1 and would work fine on 91.

With all same except 112cc chambers (cnc AFR chambers), SCR would be 9.86:1 and would work fine on 91.

If you did encounter a bad load of gas once in a while, you could fashion a water injection system from a windshield washer cannister and pump motor.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwZ7ybtQnr8
You might want to turn the horrid music off in order to concentrate on the build.

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Here are the flex plate and damper

OK, the motor is externally balanced and it's time to re-do the elastomeric material in the middle of the damper.
DamperDoctor

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Yep-front looks pretty bad
R
position of weight on flex plate looks weird, but-----

I see 4 drilled holes in piston boss for balancing------are the others drilled similar?
Also wrist pin looks about 1/2 inch into boss? Are the pins floating or interference fitted in rods?

I'm really thinking for pump gas you need a new set of pistons and a rebalance.

Will purchase new damper with other engine parts.

All pistons have 8 balance drill markings on each

Pins are interference in rod.

I could accurately weigh and re balance the pistons after machining but I am thinking more and more about just spending the money and importing a set of pistons with the correct dome volume.

Which brand of pistons would you guys recommend and where would I look for them online ?

Great article Denny, good reading.
I've been a fan of Keith Black cast hypereutectics....like forever....for a street motor. There is a piston mentioned in the article that Denny linked for you, the KB203KTM+060, which includes the hyper pistons and cast iron moly ring set. They don't come in +0.050", so you'd have to hone the cylinders to 4.310" plus clearance. These hypers require a little extra ring gap, so you want to open up the top ring to 0.0028" for street driving or 0.035" if you will do any towing with the car. Piston to wall should be 0.002" to 0.0025" for street driving or towing. You can see all the different clearances for yourself here.....
https://www.uempistons.com/installat...stallation.pdf
These piston feature a 12cc pop-up, so here are the numbers....

With block deck height cut to 9.780" (zero deck with 2.0" crank radius, 6.135" rod and 1.645" piston), bore cut to 4.310" and using a Fel-Pro 1017-1 head gasket and 115cc chambers (iron head), the SCR would be 9.44:1. and squish/quench would be 0.039"

Same as above, but with 112cc chambers (aluminum AFR CNC'd)....9.67:1

Same as above, but with 109cc chambers (aluminum AFR not CNC'd)....9.91:1

Or you could have the head decks cut a few thousandths after CNC and end up with 107cc chambers for a 10.08:1 SCR

In case you're wondering, you must use a composition gasket with aluminum heads, so you need to have all that lined out even though you will begin with iron heads. Steel shims or copper gaskets don't allow enough movement to absorb growth/shrink characteristics in the aluminum and will fret the soft material over time. You also want to use a pre-flattened fire ring in the head gasket, to prevent brinelling of the head surface. The 1017-1 qualifies.

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New pistons would be the easiest most effiecient way to redo it and sell off your old ones---

do you have the piston pin press tooling to remove/install pins? I use an Sunnen electric rod heater for installing -pressing them in squeeses the alum and kills the clearance

Our poor ladies.

Even their curling irons are vulnerable to our hobby.

Ok I will go with new pistons. One of my bores has a rubbed line marked on it so to get rid of that line, I need to bore the engine out to 4.35" or bigger

I'm not too keen to zero deck the block right now. When the piston is at TDC, the clearance between the top of the piston and the top of the block is only 0.2mm (0.0078")

I would like to leave that as it is, in case this block has to get decked in the future due to some incident like warping due to over heating or something.

So I have searched for hours online, and come up with these ICON Premium Forged Pistons IC779-100 -

Are these an acceptable brand and type of piston for my build ?

cylinder volume 973.66 (with the new bigger bore size)
chamber vol 115
dome vol 18
gasket vol 10.5 (Fel-pro 1017-1)
ring land vol 1.1 (from my existing piston)
clearance vol 1.8 (keeping the 0.2mm deck clearance)

Compression ratio 9.82:1

If this is all good, I can finally go ahead and order the parts. Will take several weeks to get to me

Originally Posted by ceejay

Ok I will go with new pistons. One of my bores has a rubbed line marked on it so to get rid of that line, I need to bore the engine out to 4.35" or bigger.

Or hone 7 of them to 4.310" for a +0.060" piston and sleeve the one that's scored, then bore and hone it to 4.310". That would give you a far greater selection of pistons to choose from.

Originally Posted by ceejay

I'm not too keen to zero deck the block right now. When the piston is at TDC, the clearance between the top of the piston and the top of the block is only 0.2mm (0.0078")

Problem with that thinking is that you don't know what the piston compression height is, so you don't know if the pistons you are going to buy will be the same compression height or not. You need to know that right now, and you need to know the block deck height right now.

Originally Posted by ceejay

I would like to leave that as it is, in case this block has to get decked in the future due to some incident like warping due to over heating or something.

Sounds like bogus thinkin' to me, particularly since you have no idea what the piston compression height of your new pistons will be.

Originally Posted by ceejay

So I have searched for hours online, and come up with these ICON Premium Forged Pistons IC779-100 -

Piston compression height is 1.645". Rod length is 6.135" Crank radius is 2.000. Sum is 9.780'. Stock block deck height is 9.800". This leaves the piston down in the bore by 0.020" at TDC. Add the 0.039" gasket thickness and you will have a squish/quench of 0.059", too wide to be effective in controlling detonation with 91 octane fuel and iron heads in my opinion. Measure block deck height and piston compression height right now.

Originally Posted by ceejay

Are these an acceptable brand and type of piston for my build ?

cylinder volume 973.66 (with the new bigger bore size)
chamber vol 115
dome vol 18
gasket vol 10.5 (Fel-pro 1017-1)
ring land vol 1.1 (from my existing piston)
clearance vol 1.8 (keeping the 0.2mm deck clearance)

Compression ratio 9.82:1

Disregarding ring land volume, which nobody figures, the static compression ratio would be 9.92:1, far too high for 91 pump gas with iron heads. Hone 7 cylinders for +0.060" pistons, sleeve, bore and hone one cylinder for a +0.060" piston, purchase hypereutectic Keith Black KB203KTM+060 for 5/64 rings or hypereutectic Keith Black KB201KTD+060 for 1/16 rings. I'd choose wider rings for a street motor. Cut the block deck height to 9.780" for zero deck and use 1017-1 head gaskets for a 0.039" squish/quench. Now, that's what I'd do and it would result in a 9.44:1 static compression ratio. You do whatever you think is best.

http://jamisonequipment.com/sites/de...s/BHM-24-1.gif
Add half the main bearing bore less bearings.

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Bare with me techinspector1 and work with me here. I'm grateful for your input and am trying to strike a balance here between the ideal world and the limitations I have to work with, here in Sri Lanka.

I'm not keen to go with a sleeve because this is a large bore size (by Sri Lankan standards) and the sleeving process over here even at the best facility, leave much to be desired.
The sleeve material is not ideal and the machined outer surface can not be guaranteed to be true. Leaving air pockets between the sleeve and the bore etc... I have had to deal with all these shortcomings in the past so I'm keen to avoid with this build.

BTW the deck height is stock at 9.8"

What if I bore all cylinders to use the Keith Black KB201KTD-100 or the KB203KTM-100 and zero deck the block and use the recommended felpro gasket.

The figures will be as follows.


cylinder volume 973.66
chamber vol 115
dome vol 12
gasket vol 10.5
ring land vol 0
clearance vol 0

Compression ratio 9.58:1

Originally Posted by ceejay

Bare with me techinspector1 and work with me here. I'm grateful for your input and am trying to strike a balance here between the ideal world and the limitations I have to work with, here in Sri Lanka.

I'm not keen to go with a sleeve because this is a large bore size (by Sri Lankan standards) and the sleeving process over here even at the best facility, leave much to be desired.
The sleeve material is not ideal and the machined outer surface can not be guaranteed to be true. Leaving air pockets between the sleeve and the bore etc... I have had to deal with all these shortcomings in the past so I'm keen to avoid with this build.

BTW the deck height is stock at 9.8"

What if I bore all cylinders to use the Keith Black KB201KTD-100 or the KB203KTM-100 and zero deck the block and use the recommended felpro gasket.

The figures will be as follows.


cylinder volume 973.66
chamber vol 115
dome vol 12
gasket vol 10.5
ring land vol 0
clearance vol 0

Compression ratio 9.58:1

I'd go for it.
Pay very close attention to recommended piston to bore clearance and top-ring end gap. Also pay close attention to the pop-up and how/where it meets with the combustion chamber roof. Use clay to check. Some massaging may be necessary. Check piston to valve clearance with clay, I would want 0.120" exhaust and 0.080" intake minimum. On OVERLAP, check at 30, 20, 10, 0 degrees BTDC, 10, 20, 30 degrees ATDC.

Use this tutorial to determine pushrod length....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU

Use ONLY roller tappets. Flat tappets in a BBC are just asking for trouble.

Turn the block upside down on the engine stand. Build a little cone (shaped like an American Indian teepee) of modeling clay about an inch high and mush it down onto the oil pump pickup. Oil the clay so that it will not stick to the pan bottom......do not use PlayDoh, it will not hold its shape. Use oil-based modeling clay from a craft or hobby shop. Lay a new pan gasket in place and snug down the corner pan bolts. Take the pan back off and measure the height of the cone of clay. That will tell you how far the pickup is off the bottom of the pan. Shoot for 3/8" to 1/2". If the pan is closer than that, the pump can suck the pan bottom up against the pickup and shut off flow to the pump. If the pan is farther away than that, you may be starving the motor for oil if she's down a quart or more. Adjust for this clearance with the length/depth of the pickup tube. Cutting and welding (tigged by a professional welder) is acceptable. Use a brace.....
https://carshopinc.biz/media/catalog...I/MIL18300.jpg

Use valve springs that are recommended by the cam manufacturer. Using a bench vise, put the springs, one at a time, in the vise and crank the spring down to the assembled height, then crank 'er on down to the lift spec of the cam lobe and measure, with a feeler gauge blade, the clearance between the spring turns. You should see at least 0.010" between each of the turns for a total of ~0.050" minimum total. Once you have the assembled heads torqued to the block, just before you button up the valve covers, use a piece of small diameter solder bent so you can put it in between the rocker stud and rocker slot and turn the motor over 2 full revolutions. Have a friend hold the solder while you turn the crank. Pull the solder out and see if it is smashed or not. This will tell you if you have sufficient clearance between the rocker slot and the rocker stud at full lift. If the solder is smashed, get rockers with longer slots or modify the rockers yourself with the appropriately sized small round stone and a hand-held grinder. This operation is, of course, only for stamped steel conventional rockers. If you're using roller rockers (Recommend Crane), then ignore this advice.

This is the type of telescoping gauge that I have used in the past to set up these distances in the vise. Quick and easy once you have them set to your measurements...
http://www.handsontools.com/Central-...PIMaAh5Q8P8HAQ


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Thanks for all that most valuable advice techinspector1 !! Much appreciated.

I am posting today, to ask what should I do about my 781 heads ? They have the stock valve sizes now. 2.06 intake and 1.72 exhaust with 3/8 stems

The heads were set up with Crane cams roller rockers 1.72 ratio.

The valves, guides and rockers are in as new condition. Should I go for the 2.19/1.88 valves or are my existing valves big enough for my build spec.

Since I will be using the Crane cams 139761 cam which is a Hydraulic roller cam, I will definitely be using roller tappets.

I have placed all of the other parts in my virtual shopping basket on Jegs but have not been able to find suitable valves which are 2.19 and 1.88 heads but with 3/8 stems.

Please advice. If you advice to go for the bigger valves, please point me in the direction of vendors where they can be purchased... even if it means I have to buy guides to go with 11/32 stems.

Would be ideal if I can buy the valves, guides, springs, locks as a kit.

Chev BB Head Improvement Kits

This vendor sells kits but they say they are suitable for dart iron eagle and world merlin II heads. My heads are stock GM 781 heads.

Your advice please

I have read that you can improve flow by 30 cfm by using the larger valves and blending them in with a little pocket work, so yeah, if you have the shekels to spare, I would definitely go 2.19"/1.88".
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-45625-8/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mi...make/chevrolet

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Use valves from 351 ford--11/32 stems-guide liner from K-line