Thread: oil burner update

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hey all: talked to Hastings ring co. about the massive oil problem. "Read" the rings to them over the phone to what they look like. It sounded to them that the compression rings were spinning in the grooves. Finally got two people to think maybe the grease wouldn't let the rings catch right away and the rings were free to spin. By the time the grease was gone it was too late and the rings continued to spin and ruin them. The 2nd compression rings tapered "edge" that contacts the cylinder wall to scrape oil off lookes to be "rounded" off. Some feel the spinning ring could of ruined the ring(s) by "filing" them down by wearing the wrong way across the cross hatch pattern. Any thoughts on that one? We sent a pistion and rings out of the first rebuild to Hasting's to analyze for us. I'll let you know what they say. We haven't taken the motor apart yet. We're going to wait for their response. The top comp. ring on both sides are polished off with circular "cut" marks around the entire sides surfaces. Compression rings on all 8 cylinders are worn the same. Detonation was the only common thing associated with ring spin. (there are other reasons, but we feel they don't apply)
We don't feel the engine has a detonation problem. Any thoughts on this? Let me know. Thanks

Originally posted by tts
hey all: talked to Hastings ring co. about the massive oil problem. "Read" the rings to them over the phone to what they look like. It sounded to them that the compression rings were spinning in the grooves. Finally got two people to think maybe the grease wouldn't let the rings catch right away and the rings were free to spin. By the time the grease was gone it was too late and the rings continued to spin and ruin them. The 2nd compression rings tapered "edge" that contacts the cylinder wall to scrape oil off lookes to be "rounded" off. Some feel the spinning ring could of ruined the ring(s) by "filing" them down by wearing the wrong way across the cross hatch pattern. Any thoughts on that one? We sent a pistion and rings out of the first rebuild to Hasting's to analyze for us. I'll let you know what they say. We haven't taken the motor apart yet. We're going to wait for their response. The top comp. ring on both sides are polished off with circular "cut" marks around the entire sides surfaces. Compression rings on all 8 cylinders are worn the same. Detonation was the only common thing associated with ring spin. (there are other reasons, but we feel they don't apply)
We don't feel the engine has a detonation problem. Any thoughts on this? Let me know. Thanks

I NEVER PUT ANY THING ON THE CYLINDERS EXCEPT SOMETHING LIKE WD-40.YOU WANT THE RINGS TO (DRAG) SO THEY SEAT.THERE ARE MAKERS OF A PASTE/POWDER THAT YOU PUT IN THE BORES TO FILL THE CROSS HATCH MARKS UP SO THE RINGS WILL SEAT FASTER.YOUR PISTON RINGS HAVE TO SPIN FREELY ON THE PISTONS.WHAT WAS YOUR CYLINDER BORE TAPER?WHAT WAS YOUR RING END GAP?WAS IT THE SAME ON THE TOP AS IT WAS THE BOTTOM RING?WHAT WAS THE FINISH IN THE CYLINDER BORES?DID YOU STAGER THE RINGS?

Originally posted by DennyW
Right off, it sounds like you have some out of round, which will make the rings rotate, and for the rings to round off, to much ring to piston clearance with let them roll on the edges.
I always use moly + rings. They have the rough abrasive on them. They seat very fast. 150 miles or so. Regular engine oil on the piston and ring assemblies when installing.

I STOPPED USING ENGINE OIL ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO ON THE CYLINDER BORES ,I ALSO SPRAY WD 40,CRC OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS ON THE RINGS AND SPIN THEM ON THE PISTONS.BECAUSE THE ENGINE OIL OF TODAY AS MANY MORE LUBRICANTS IN THAN IT DID 5-10 YEARS AGO AND IF BY CHANCE HE GRABS SYNTHETIC OIL INSTEAD OF CONVENTINAL OIL IT WILL TAKE THAT MUCH LONGER FOR THE RINGS TO SEAT.I DO NOT KNOW OF THE MOLY + RINGS. THE RINGS I USE ARE COATED TO REDUCE (DRAG) AND ARE EXTREMLY HARD AND VERY SMOOTH AND REQIRE A VERY SMOOTH CYLINDER BORE SO THE RING COATING DOES NOT CHIP OFF.

Originally posted by DennyW
It all depends on the type of rings you use. If he uses todays oil, then shame on him. The chrome moly + is just that. They are hard chrome rings with an abrasive made that way for rapid seat. Once that is worn off, you have a very good seated ring set. And, with using that type, if you did make a mistake with the oil, the abrasive would take care of that. WD-40 ain't nothing. If you get those rings to hot, you will lose the temper somewhat. The first few seconds of start up is the most wear for the life of the engine. I don't want a dry cylinder when I fire it up.
PS, I like a 32 micro-finish on my cylinder walls.

OIL GLAZING WILL CAUSE THE RINGS NOT TO SEAT.THE RINGS WILL NOT GET TO HOT.YOU HAVE OIL SPLASH WAY BEFORE THIS HAPPENS.RINGS LOSING THEIR TEMPER HAPPENS OVER A LONG TIME IN HIGH TEMP. CONDITIONS.AS FAR AS THE CHROME MOLY RINGS THEY ONLY ONES I KNOW OF USE A CHROME OIL CONTROL RING NOT COMPRESSION RINGS.THE RINGS I USE A HAVE A COATING ON THEM WHICH HELPS REDUCE FRICTION AND AID IN RING SEALING.

Originally posted by DennyW
Hey, that's fine by me. Use what ever works for you.

DENNY,I AM NOT SAYING WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WRONG.IN FACT I DID ABOUT THE SAME THING ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO.WITH THE ADVENT OF BETTER RINGS I HAVE CHANGED A LOT OF THINGS PERTAINING TO ENGINE ASSEMBLY.

Originally posted by DennyW
Well, I hope I'm not wrong. I haven't got any returns yet. Don't think for a minute that I don't keep up and change with the changing times. That's part of my own self learning. I never stop at one level. Theres no progress like that.

Heres a great number of pages to read through. Not just for you, for all wanting to learn, and catch up. I do this type of thing all the time to keep up.
I still use oil when installing pistons though.

This is what I used a lot on a normal rebuild job. I've added a perfect circle page so people can go there and read all about rings also.

Clevite Heavy Duty Rings
Clevite provides quality ring sets designed to exacting specifications. Piston ring quality and tolerances are very critical, as they perform the function of sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, plus they prevent lubricating and cooling oil from entering the combustion area.

Clevite ring sets seat fast and provide service life functionally equivalent to original equipment. In fact, superior quality allows us to extend our Premium Plus Warranty for an extra year.

Our Premium Plus ring sets feature a hardened ductile iron ring with and inlaid chrome face, ductile top ring and ductile iron second ring, which normal premium ring sets don't offer. Also, our Premium Plus rings include more chrome plating than traditional premium rings.

All three common compression ring design are offered by Clevite: rectangular, full keystone and half keystone, all in a variety of sets.

Another brand I use, depends on what is being built

Perfect Circle automotive piston rings offer OEM-type quality, premium materials and trouble-free installation. Perfect Circle piston rings are manufactured under strict quality controls that have won numerous original equipment quality awards.

Most applications offer a choice of premium or standard ring sets. Premium ring sets contain either moly-or chrome-faced top compression rings for long life under severe operating conditions.

Our three-piece oil rings use a stainless steel expander between two chrome-faced steel rails to provide a high degree of conformability within the cylinder bore. And, they're built so they can't be installed wrong, an important feature that can save you time and trouble.

Other features such as high strength materials, special ring face contours and torsional designs incorporated to suit the needs of specific applications help to ensure optimum in both compression sealing and oil control.

DUCTILE CAST IRON RINGS•Used In Many Performance Ring Applications •Used In Many Medium And Heavy Duty Applications •Advantage: Resistance To Breaking

STEEL COMPRESSION RINGS•Superior In All Areas Of Strength •Found In Many Automotive Engines Since 1992 •Found In Several Diesel Engines •Never Found Uncoated In An Engine •Superior Side Wear Characteristics

COMPRESSION RING
COATINGS•Cast Iron –+ Low Cost –+ Rapid Break-In –- Moderate Wear Resistance –- Moderate Scuff Resistance

COMPRESSION RING
COATINGS•Plasma Moly –+ Excellent Scuff Resistance –+ Good Wear Resistance –- Higher Cost

COMPRESSION RING
COATINGS•Chrome – + Excellent Wear Resistance – + Good Scuff Resistance – - Highest Cost

LAPPING COMPRESSION
RINGS•PC Laps Both Moly And Chrome –Consistent Finish –Ease Of Break-In

Just go through here, and you can read up on the rings.
http://www.engineparts.com/products/...iles/frame.htm

performance now and coming
http://www.engineparts.com/products/...iles/frame.htm

I THINK WE ARE COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES HERE.THE RINGS I AM TALKING ABOUT USING (JOBBER) AROUND $150 AND ARE MADE BY J.E.

Kind of off the wall, a number of years back I used to work part time for an automotive machinist friend. To him the most important part of doing cylinders was boring and homing with deck plates installed. In his opinion (and many years of experience) the deck plates were as important as the honing procedure to ensure round cylinders. The only method he used when assembling the short block was to dunk the pistons with rings installed in 10 weight oil and install them in dry cylinders. I am certainly not an engine expert, but I have stuck with his methods and never experience a ring seating problem.

hey all: thanks for your replies.
Erik: I don't have my sheet with me that has my specs on them. Cylinder taper ok. ring gaps ok, second ring gap is slightly larger than the first ring gap. (it was like .018-.020 top ring). Rings were stagered. Bore finish correct for the type of rings. (non moly. iron rings). The compression rings are allowed to "turn" but are not suppose to "spin". Yes I've gotten some debate over this. Hastings ring co. stated they turn per say, but they shouldn't spin violently like ours sounds like they did. (obviously why I sent them a piston and rings from the first rebuild. Only 550 miles on them. I got a set of rings from one of our mechanics. They were stock rings with 180,000 miles on them. The top ring on them had no signs of spinning as ours does. (ours have circular "scratches" all around the surface of the sides of the ring.) All the black coating on both sides was gone and there was already .0002-.0003 wear off the sides. Hasting's rings said "that sounds like a case of violently spinning ring(s)." Also said: "rings aren't designed to "spin" but are free to "turn" . Smokey states that the rings "turn" when the piston changes direction both at tdc and bdc. It aids in cleaning the carbon out from behind the rings. They may not turn as much with a fresh cylinder, but I'm sure they turn more freely when the cross hatch is all gone. Hastings rings finally agreed with the idea that the grease could of stayed on too long and the rings couldn't seat and gave the rings the best stuff to spin on-the grease. The motor, both times, smoked from start up and never stops. Maybe I'm answering my own question, but that would sound like the rings didn't "catch" on start up. By the time they caught, they got screwed up by them "spinning" for so long the wrong way over the cross hatch and/or damaging the cross hatch for when the rings don't spin, but turn again.

Denny: Except for some mega tiny high spots in the cylinders, they are all very round for not using a deck plate. I come to find through this that our machinist is highly regarded as the one to prep your block, and never had problems with his work in 22 years. I say that in hopes I could eliminate machine work as the problem. Ring to piston clearance is .002. Were using a "stock" non moly ring. I've always used oil, no problem, used the grease twice (yes stupid), and have this problem, twice. The block was rehot tanked and rehoned, only lost .0005 on the cylinder clean up, (piston to cylinder-.0025) and a new set of rings from a different company. (first set was federal mogul, second set, hasting's). How can two fresh cylinders, two different ring sets not seal? (granted if prep is done right). The common denominator comes back to the grease. I just don't want this to happen to anyone else. (30 miles per qt of oil).

Erik: Your one of the few who mentions glazing. The grease may make a barrier between the rings and cylinder. Total seal ring co. was the first company I spoke to about rings and my grease issue and was told it would glaze things up, or the grease could "chemically" bond to the cylinder wall and "plug" the cross hatch.

Denny: Thanks for all that info on the one reply!

Dave: Not off the wall at all. Using a deck plate is the way to go. All my past motors turned out fine without using one. Never had a ring sealing problem, yet, except maybe this time. The same machinist has always done my work, realizing he's human as much as I am, but when we rechecked the cylinders for roundness, (2nd rebuild) by not only my machinist, but by two other mechanics, they are all amazingly round for not using a deck plate. Just a note: we are 99.99% sure we have eliminated any possibility it's coming from the top side, which leaves pistons or rings if cylinders can be eliminated. I think it makes sence if the taper on the second ring was beveled off, it couldn't scrape oil off the cylinders very well. All eight cylinders "read" the same on the rings premature wear patterns.

I'll post the info I get back from Hastings. Since I had a piston and rings from the first rebuild, (had to replace two pistons to which is a whole other story), they can chemically analize the residue on the piston and rings, they put the stuff under a microscope, take pictures, etc. It will be interesting what they find out or say about it. Thanks again Later

It will be interesting to hear Hasting's explanation. Keep us updated

Interesting post...

A little off the subject for a moment, and I sure wouldn't recommend this, but I've heard this story for years about lightly sprinkling a tablespoon of Bon-Ami cleaning powder directly into the carb with the motor running at a fast idle to seat stubborn rings ...truth or urban legend?

Originally posted by DynoDon
Interesting post...

A little off the subject for a moment, and I sure wouldn't recommend this, but I've heard this story for years about lightly sprinkling a tablespoon of Bon-Ami cleaning powder directly into the carb with the motor running at a fast idle to seat stubborn rings ...truth or urban legend?

I HAVE HEARD OF THIS BUT I WOULD NEVER DO IT.IF YOU HAVE RINGS STICKING I WOULD TRY THE OLD TRANNY FLUID TRICK DOWN THE CARB INSTEAD.WAIT UNTIL YOUR NEIGHBORS ARE OUTSIDE START THE CAR UP AND REV IT TO ABOUT 3,000 AND VERY SLOWLY POUR A GOOD QUART DOWN THE CARB.THIS SHOULD LOOSEN THE RINGS.

Originally posted by tts
hey all: thanks for your replies.
Erik: I don't have my sheet with me that has my specs on them. Cylinder taper ok. ring gaps ok, second ring gap is slightly larger than the first ring gap. (it was like .018-.020 top ring). Rings were stagered. Bore finish correct for the type of rings. (non moly. iron rings). The compression rings are allowed to "turn" but are not suppose to "spin". Yes I've gotten some debate over this. Hastings ring co. stated they turn per say, but they shouldn't spin violently like ours sounds like they did. (obviously why I sent them a piston and rings from the first rebuild. Only 550 miles on them. I got a set of rings from one of our mechanics. They were stock rings with 180,000 miles on them. The top ring on them had no signs of spinning as ours does. (ours have circular "scratches" all around the surface of the sides of the ring.) All the black coating on both sides was gone and there was already .0002-.0003 wear off the sides. Hasting's rings said "that sounds like a case of violently spinning ring(s)." Also said: "rings aren't designed to "spin" but are free to "turn" . Smokey states that the rings "turn" when the piston changes direction both at tdc and bdc. It aids in cleaning the carbon out from behind the rings. They may not turn as much with a fresh cylinder, but I'm sure they turn more freely when the cross hatch is all gone. Hastings rings finally agreed with the idea that the grease could of stayed on too long and the rings couldn't seat and gave the rings the best stuff to spin on-the grease. The motor, both times, smoked from start up and never stops. Maybe I'm answering my own question, but that would sound like the rings didn't "catch" on start up. By the time they caught, they got screwed up by them "spinning" for so long the wrong way over the cross hatch and/or damaging the cross hatch for when the rings don't spin, but turn again.

Denny: Except for some mega tiny high spots in the cylinders, they are all very round for not using a deck plate. I come to find through this that our machinist is highly regarded as the one to prep your block, and never had problems with his work in 22 years. I say that in hopes I could eliminate machine work as the problem. Ring to piston clearance is .002. Were using a "stock" non moly ring. I've always used oil, no problem, used the grease twice (yes stupid), and have this problem, twice. The block was rehot tanked and rehoned, only lost .0005 on the cylinder clean up, (piston to cylinder-.0025) and a new set of rings from a different company. (first set was federal mogul, second set, hasting's). How can two fresh cylinders, two different ring sets not seal? (granted if prep is done right). The common denominator comes back to the grease. I just don't want this to happen to anyone else. (30 miles per qt of oil).

Erik: Your one of the few who mentions glazing. The grease may make a barrier between the rings and cylinder. Total seal ring co. was the first company I spoke to about rings and my grease issue and was told it would glaze things up, or the grease could "chemically" bond to the cylinder wall and "plug" the cross hatch.

Denny: Thanks for all that info on the one reply!

Dave: Not off the wall at all. Using a deck plate is the way to go. All my past motors turned out fine without using one. Never had a ring sealing problem, yet, except maybe this time. The same machinist has always done my work, realizing he's human as much as I am, but when we rechecked the cylinders for roundness, (2nd rebuild) by not only my machinist, but by two other mechanics, they are all amazingly round for not using a deck plate. Just a note: we are 99.99% sure we have eliminated any possibility it's coming from the top side, which leaves pistons or rings if cylinders can be eliminated. I think it makes sence if the taper on the second ring was beveled off, it couldn't scrape oil off the cylinders very well. All eight cylinders "read" the same on the rings premature wear patterns.

I'll post the info I get back from Hastings. Since I had a piston and rings from the first rebuild, (had to replace two pistons to which is a whole other story), they can chemically analize the residue on the piston and rings, they put the stuff under a microscope, take pictures, etc. It will be interesting what they find out or say about it. Thanks again Later

ABOUT 10 YEARS ABG I HEARD ABOUT A GUY WHO BUILT A SHORT BLOCK AND JUST FILLED THE CYLINDERS WITH WHITE GREASE AND LET IT SET FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE HE WAS RE-BUILDING THE HEADS.ABOUT THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO HIM.YOU NOTICED THE GREAT DEBATE ABOUT OIL IN THE BORES.THE SAME THING WILL HAPPEN IF TO MUCH OIL IS USED IN THE CYLINDER BORES.IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE WEIGHT OF THE OIL AND THE AMOUNT OF OIL USED AND ALSO IF IT IS SYNTHETIC OR NOT.IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF DRAG GREASE WOULD MAKE IN THE CYLINDERS YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS COULD HAPPEN.THE SAME WILL HOLD TRUE IF YOU USE TO MUCH OIL OR THE WRONG WEIGHT.HERE IS A TRICK TO TRY.FIRST DUNK YOUR PISTON AND RING COMBO IN CAN OF 10-W40 OIL AND THEN TRY TO SPIN THE RINGS ON THE PISTONS.THEN THINK ABOUT THE 10-W40 YOU ALSO PUT IN THE CYLINDERS.IT REALLY MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR THE RINGS TO TURN.NOW TRY THE SAME THING WITH A VERY LIGHT SPRAY LUBE.YOU WILL NOTICE HOW NICE AND FREELY THE RINGS TURN.THE TRUTH IS AS SOON AS YOU FIRE UP THE ENGINE YOU GET SOME SPLASH BEING THROWN UP INTO THE CYLINDERS.EVERY TIME A PISTON MOVES UP AND DOWN IT TAKES OF A VERY LARGE AMOUNT OIL DUE TO THE RINGS DRAGING UP AND DOWN AND ALSO THE PISTON SKIRT WIPES A WAY A LOT OF IT.ON A LOT OF HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS ONLY REQUIRE A SKIRT CLEARANCE OF .0015 TO .0020.YOU CAN SEE THERE WON'T BE A LOT OF OIL GOING BY THE PISTON SKIRT TO THE RINGS.THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS IF YOU MUST USE OIL USE IT VERY SPARINGLY AND USE A VERY WEIGHT LIGHT OIL.

hey all:
Dave: I'll keep ya all posted.
DynoDon: Being desperate on the first rebuild, I tried the Bon Ami trick, didn't work for us.
Erik: Haven't tried any tranny fluid, but on the second rebuild I did try a bit of Sea Foam down the carb in an attempt to "clean" any excess grease away-no luck. Later

man thats some wild stuff you guys send down the intake to clear stuff out. Atf will smoke like nutts but also does'nt compress so it can bend rods. I just used water , dripp dripp

When I build an egine the cylinders get a light coat of oil and the rings and piston get a film of oil, WRIST pins get a good heavy coat engine lube and a shot oil prior to install.

When I rebuild cylinders, I thoroughly lube the ring groves and piston skirt with whatever oil I'm going to use in the crankcase. I also squirt a little on the cylinder wall before I install the piston. Before I start the engine, I usually turn it a few times. The oil scraper ring will remove any excess oil. I've rebuilt engines with a 25,000 hour time between overhaul interval, so it's very important that the rings seat properly. One of them smoked some at idle until it was put under load, after about 30 minutes under 50% power, the rings seated and it hasn't smoked since. Sometimes it's hard for us to put engines under load right away.