Thread: LT1 or 400 small block?

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need some serious help, im going to be building one of the two motors, here is the background info, Vehicle: 2001 Chevy S-10, plans: curiser and racer Hopes: 11.6*. Ok you know what I want to do, here is my whole ordeal, my dad thinks that ill get in too deep if i build the 400 from a bare block with all the bits and pieces and thinks I should buy an all together LT1, and rebuild that, however I do not see any difference, as with the lt1 ill be building it from crank up anyways, my question is, what do I have a better chance to get into the 11's with? what way is cheaper? (btw the 400 would also be bored and or stroked with big cam) and what would be the difference as to parts between the both? wouldnt it be cheaper to buy the 400 block, the rotating assembly, and the heads as opposed to the complete LT1, but the rotating assembley, port and polish heads, new cam over old cam ect? is it really that much of a difference?

I would say LT1 for a few reasons...

11.6 1/4 mile time shows (in my desktop dyno) to take about 515 flywheel HP in a 3500 lbs car.

At 515 hp you'll have a hard time cooling a 400 on the street especially if its bored and stroked...Thats JMO...

I would say 400 for a few reasons...

515 HP is easier/cheaper to build from a 400 because parts are cheaper for GEN I then they are for the LT/LS's...

With that much power you could really romp it around and you might have enough money left after you build it to put tires on you car because with that much power, you'll be putting tires on about every 3 months

First question is what is your budget

Second Question is how much of the work can you do yourself?

Third Question, have you considered a Gen III small block like an LS1 or 6.0 from from a GM truck or SUV? That would be my choice ahead of either of the other two. You will get a very quick truck that will have good street manners and get reasonable mpg.

Pat

It's going to take more than 500 hp to get in the 11's, it will also require a different rear end, either a 4 link or ladder bar rear suspension, race springs and shocks in the front, some frame stiffening, and a transmission and torque converter capable of handling and applying the power. Usually the required horsepower is the easy part of going fast......

If you have a 400 block, I would build it. It will handle the hp you will need and cooling won't be a problem with the Felpro Race gasket set as the coolant holes are fixed in the gasket. Jeg's sells the 406 rotating assembly for $1000.00 and it will also handle the power you need.

Originally posted by Dave Severson
It's going to take more than 500 hp to get in the 11's, it will also require a different rear end, either a 4 link or ladder bar rear suspension, race springs and shocks in the front, some frame stiffening, and a transmission and torque converter capable of handling and applying the power. Usually the required horsepower is the easy part of going fast......

already have a completally built ford 9", getting full 4 link put in sooner or later, frame is boxed, 4000 stall converter and buying either a 4l60e, th400, or something of that nature (700r4??) already build from a shop like TCI, as for budget on the motor, ill have considerably less with the LT1, cos my dad will want me to buy the whole motor used, so thats some $$ there, as for work, the only thing we cant do is machine work, we can do the assembly and actually will have to because its my senior project, still think LT1?

EDIT: BTW, i have to swap radiators anyways, so i will be getting a much much better one to begin with, and if it helps anyone to know, the weight of the truck with me in it is 3200

Hey Xtremes, If this was my project & I had the goals that you have I'd go with a used LS1. I have a LT1 Firebird & used to hang out a lot over at www.camaroz28.com & it doesn't take a whole lot to get an LS1 into the 11's. An LS1 Firebird/Camaro would go low 13's right off the showroom floor. Headers, a cold air intake, higher stall converter, the proper gears & tires and they are in the 11's. Your going to have to get headers anyway, your buying a new converter so you can get a higher stall {your not replacing anything}, you can build a home made intake for next to nothing, etc. etc. etc.... Stu Cool mentioned an LS1 from a truck or SUV, I'd check on that {I don't know the differences, if any, on those LS1's}. Go to that web site under the 'Gen III engine' section & check it out. I'd say that you already have your hands full with the engine, trans, rear end, etc. install to also tackle totally rebuilding/assemling an engine. You could get a running LS1 that doesn't need to be rebuilt. If you wanted to built it faster in the future and do a rebuild w/ cam/heads, computer tune, etc. & your in the 10's. Add nitrous??? Woooo, the possibilities are endless. You've got modern technology on your side with this engine. Lots of room for future upgrades. That' hard to beat. An example is they come stock with {I forgot exactly} but I think it's 15 degree heads {or is it 14?}. The first Gen. heads are 23 degree & going to even 18 degree heads will cost a fortune. 15 degree heads put the valves at a straighter up angle so the air/fuel goes into the cylinders at a straigther shot. In ANY motor the heads are where the power is...... Although with modern technology your getting away from the basic trouble shooting techniques; i/e if your car doesn't start you MANUALLY first check the spark, then gas & such. With the LS1 its done by computer.
You mentioned boring & stroking a 400 block? Well, good 400 blocks are hard to find & you need a good one for boring. A Dart block is $2000 plus. Good heads for the 400 are $1200 up {approx.... I have a 400 with AFR heads, they were $1440}.
The LS1 will be more streetable & get better gas milage. The LS1 ALREADY has a roller cam. Roller cam, roller lifters, roller rockers for a 400? $1000 or so..... Check out www.campbellenterprises.com it has a Quarter mile calculator which says that you'll need 525 HP {flywheel} to go 11.60 {at 3200 pounds}. That's easier & probably cheaper with an LS1..... hope this helps ya..... bill

Originally posted by billlsbird
Hey Xtremes, If this was my project & I had the goals that you have I'd go with a used LS1. I have a LT1 Firebird & used to hang out a lot over at www.camaroz28.com & it doesn't take a whole lot to get an LS1 into the 11's. An LS1 Firebird/Camaro would go low 13's right off the showroom floor. Headers, a cold air intake, higher stall converter, the proper gears & tires and they are in the 11's. Your going to have to get headers anyway, your buying a new converter so you can get a higher stall {your not replacing anything}, you can build a home made intake for next to nothing, etc. etc. etc.... Stu Cool mentioned an LS1 from a truck or SUV, I'd check on that {I don't know the differences, if any, on those LS1's}. Go to that web site under the 'Gen III engine' section & check it out. I'd say that you already have your hands full with the engine, trans, rear end, etc. install to also tackle totally rebuilding/assemling an engine. You could get a running LS1 that doesn't need to be rebuilt. If you wanted to built it faster in the future and do a rebuild w/ cam/heads, computer tune, etc. & your in the 10's. Add nitrous??? Woooo, the possibilities are endless. You've got modern technology on your side with this engine. Lots of room for future upgrades. That' hard to beat. An example is they come stock with {I forgot exactly} but I think it's 15 degree heads {or is it 14?}. The first Gen. heads are 23 degree & going to even 18 degree heads will cost a fortune. 15 degree heads put the valves at a straighter up angle so the air/fuel goes into the cylinders at a straigther shot. In ANY motor the heads are where the power is...... Although with modern technology your getting away from the basic trouble shooting techniques; i/e if your car doesn't start you MANUALLY first check the spark, then gas & such. With the LS1 its done by computer.
You mentioned boring & stroking a 400 block? Well, good 400 blocks are hard to find & you need a good one for boring. A Dart block is $2000 plus. Good heads for the 400 are $1200 up {approx.... I have a 400 with AFR heads, they were $1440}.
The LS1 will be more streetable & get better gas milage. The LS1 ALREADY has a roller cam. Roller cam, roller lifters, roller rockers for a 400? $1000 or so..... Check out www.campbellenterprises.com it has a Quarter mile calculator which says that you'll need 525 HP {flywheel} to go 11.60 {at 3200 pounds}. That's easier & probably cheaper with an LS1..... hope this helps ya..... bill

only problem with that is that the starting used motor would be somewhere around $2000 and thats for 70-90k in miles, however, I am wondering if I could build the 6.0l block, but I cant find a rotating assembly cheap enough, cheapest I found was $2300 for that GENIII plus I need coil packs, injectors, cam, heads and associated parts, tranny ($1500 priced out), headers, ect... and I have a budget of however much I want to spend, but it has to be done soon, I have $2700 to start with, but the 6.0l and ls1 have already been discussed, the swap parts are actually more however, $70 for motor mounts, $400 for headers, I cant find a cheap set of heads with a cam, which if I did the LS1, I would def do a larger cam (.575/.575'ish) on stock bored, and a new set of heads or ported and polished heads, unless you think there is a combination I could do to make the horsepower out of a 6.0l or 5.7l without the big money in the heads to make it into 11.6* area, the main main reason for this is to beat my dad's firehawk, running 11.73 on his LS6, which is putting 495 horse at the flywheel. any ideas? would it be cheaper to buy the ls1 complete and used ot buy the 6.0l block and build that?

....If I'm understanding you correctly you can get a used LS1 for $2000??? If this is complete I would go for it. You don't need cam/heads right away. Use a little nitrous to get to the 11's..... That's a cheaper way to go quicker..... Unless you Dad's car has weight reduction stuff done to it your p./u is 500 pounds or so lighter. 500 pounds less is equivilent to 50 HP more. Which brings up another point, are there any weight reduction things you can do it your p/u? That's free HP. Weight off of the front in a p/u..... good luck bill

ps, Or a used 350, put forged pistons in it, & run nitrous. This might be less money??? Oh, if your Dad's Firehawk is in the 11's it sounds like he KNOWS what he's talking about

Originally posted by billlsbird
....If I'm understanding you correctly you can get a used LS1 for $2000??? If this is complete I would go for it. You don't need cam/heads right away. Use a little nitrous to get to the 11's..... That's a cheaper way to go quicker..... Unless you Dad's car has weight reduction stuff done to it your p./u is 500 pounds or so lighter. 500 pounds less is equivilent to 50 HP more. Which brings up another point, are there any weight reduction things you can do it your p/u? That's free HP. Weight off of the front in a p/u..... good luck bill

ps, Or a used 350, put forged pistons in it, & run nitrous. This might be less money??? Oh, if your Dad's Firehawk is in the 11's it sounds like he KNOWS what he's talking about

bleh, thats the one thing my dad and I vowed against, nitrous, its great and all for all intensive purposes, but it just says somthing when you can hit that number of 11.6 or 11.7 and not have a blower or nitrous to me, but, I found a 6.0l with aluminum heads on ebay with 5 miles on it, he wants $2500 for it, which will deplete my budget at this point right now, but its a start, im looking at $600 in swap parts from there, then do you think if i put a good size cam like I said and redid the valves for the lift and whatnot, could it hit 11's? btw im planning on pulling my seats and putting a pair of like summit race seats in, only like 2 lbs each I lose another 50 or so, also, are there any place you think I could find a used 6.0l for cheaper than $2500 that wouldnt need rebuilt? maybe a wrecking yard? too high hopes?

P.S. yea his hawk is wild, I love it, all motor, head and cam kit done, .575/.575 lift, im not sure the flow on the heads, it was from SLP, moser 12 bolt, 3.73 rear end, he just got some new goodies like the LS-X intake, 90mm Throttle body, new fuel pump, 44# injectors, electric water pump, all the fun stuff

If you use a roller cam and Vortec heads, your GenI block will have everything the LT1 has except reverse flow cooling. The LT1 will require a little less octane for a given compression ratio as a result.

.....Not sure what a good price is on the 6.o liter. I'm on my way out the door the see the Rolling Stones at the Forum in LA. Got to hurry.... Please remember what I've said is WHAT I WOULD DO if I was in your possition. This might NOT be the best thing for you. I'm not qualified to comment on building a first gen. as well as some of the others on the board. Like 76GMC1500 said, pick his brain for some 'build your own 350 to go 11's'..... And what I was saying in my previous post was in regards to an LS1 which is about one second faster than an LT1. Go to www.camaroz28.com & check out the engine section on the LT1's & the LS1's. There is HOURS of reading on what to do. Not that this board can't answer this but that site is exculsive to F-Body's.... "Oh, you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you can get what you need"....... by Nick Jagger.....

well, I am finding used LT1's complete with about 80k miles and aluminum heads(I think, out of 1995 and up camaro's and firebirds...believe they are aluminum??) for around $750 - $1000, what do yall think?

....yes the LT1's have aluminum heads {'93 to '97 in Firebirds/Camaro's}. LS1's are '98 to '02 in Firebirds/Camaro's}. Vette's first had LS1's in '97, heads & block aluminum. Not sure if $700 to $1000 is a good deal {is this price for LT1's or LS1's???}. Check; local salvage yards, e-bay, etc... Did you price an LS1 out of a truck or SUV like StuCool mentioned??? I'm not sure but they might come with iron blocks with would mean c-h-e-a-p-e-r ...... Also there is a thread that's active right now tilted 'What's the cheapest way to make 500 HP'. Please READ IT..... So is your total budget $2600??? bill

Originally posted by billlsbird
....yes the LT1's have aluminum heads {'93 to '97 in Firebirds/Camaro's}. LS1's are '98 to '02 in Firebirds/Camaro's}. Vette's first had LS1's in '97, heads & block aluminum. Not sure if $700 to $1000 is a good deal {is this price for LT1's or LS1's???}. Check; local salvage yards, e-bay, etc... Did you price an LS1 out of a truck or SUV like StuCool mentioned??? I'm not sure but they might come with iron blocks with would mean c-h-e-a-p-e-r ...... Also there is a thread that's active right now tilted 'What's the cheapest way to make 500 HP'. Please READ IT..... So is your total budget $2600??? bill

Price for the LT1's, the LS1 out of the trucks are anywhere from $2500 to $8000 around ebay, I would like to get one that is around 80k in miles or so, like out of the work van (same motor different intake) and build that, but im not sure how much id be looking at out of a junkyard, and $2600 is what I have to start with, then as I go ill be making the money to put into it