Thread: BG 6 Shooter vs Edelbrock Dual Quad?

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One of my Mustangs had a tricked out injection system that was tuneable direct from a lap top. Could re do the fuel curve and timing curve.... The Street and Performance unit isn't????

PS... I have no idea how the thing worked. I have a nephew who is both a hot rodder and a computer guy. All I did was tell him what I wanted the ignition and fuel to do, and he punched it in..... Worked great!!!...till my nephew moved, then I sold the car and went back to carbs!!!!!

i've been thinking of using one of those laptop chips with the 5.0 injection on my car..... but i'm still thinking of maybe custom building my very own SFI setup.... i have an airgap manifold laying around that i might try drilling for injectors, and then build some fuel rails, and a throttle body for the TPS and MAP sensors... then i just gotta do the basic crank and cam trigger stuff.... only problem is that i would need to make the timing independant of my distributor, or make a coil on plug to go along with the SFI

I think I understand 100 percent what Troy is talking about with the cam situation. When we build a street driven hot rod, sometimes performance takes a backseat to image. If we were building these things to run down the quarter, we would go for as much efficiency as possible, but when we build them for the street, we give up some of that for the red light idle and cool factor.

The 460 Ford I will use for a future project has a roller cam that comes in at 4500, and needs a convertor that is extremely loose. Crane cams told me this cam should never be on the street, but that is where it will probably end up. I know all the things about how a smaller cam would be more sensible, and probably faster, but I am willing to sacrifice that for the idle and image I am after. Besides, a race built 460 will give me more than enough HP regardless of the efficiency level.

We all do this, and put stuff on our rods that compromise HP for image, otherwise we would be building strictly race engines. Who was it, Hernando who said "it is better to look good than to feel good."


Don

In theory you can get any progammable EFI system to do exacty what it needs to from cold start on up. If I was that PO'ed at my EFI and my car would pass inspection without it then maybe I would dump the EFI and run a Speed Demon from BG. Not likely though, I would probably fix the EFI.

Kitz

I do have a serious question here casue i have been thinking about EFI.
What do u mean u had chips burnt did u not program this yourself or get a programable ecm. cause my question is if u had a chip burnt that makes me assume that u never brought the vehicle down to a chassis dyno where they will for some coin tune your ecm for you. and you had it burnt also makes me assume that u called some one with your engine specs and then they mail the chip to you. which my question is how can someone do something when they are not tuning it for all situations full/part throttle and cruising speeds. just wondering cause i'd like to EFI someday but i read stuff like this and i get shy'd away cause i dont wanna spend money on something that i am not gonna like


hope this all makes sense

pre burnt chips if done right for your setup will work close to right, and depending on the system, you'll have active fuel trim, which will run off the tables in open loop til she warms up and then try and base the fuel trim close to the table but also run 14.7:1 AF ratio.... the problem is on the systems that are burnt to run stricktly off the table in open loop, they dont accomadate the fact that engines built 500 times with the same parts aren't going to run exactly the same, plus the weather and altitude can change effects too..... i reccomend if you want to do EFI make sure your system is going to allow closed loop with fuel trim capabilities..... and reprogrammable fuel tables... and its even better if you can use a fully electronic ignition so the computer can control advance as well.... maybe even a distributorless ignition.... thats why i'm thinking of building my own coil on plug system.... i'd reccomend maybe taking an ASE engine performance levels 1 and 2 classes at a local college so you can really get the theory

Well...let me try to give a few more details so you know where I have been and where I am coming from.
First of all, the TPI from S&P looks cool. It was very expensive ($5K with everything because in 1998 this was the latest and greatest...or so they told me. And dont take this as a slam on these guys. They are about the nicest guys in the business, but I believe they have been learning FI on the customer's money. Otherwise we would have solved this in the 5 live attempts, and several mail order adjustments).
They sent me a chip which was designed for my original cam (which again, they specified). When the local speed shop dynoed the engine, we had to have the prom changed several times. Once it was on the road, it ran extremely rich and toasted the coated headers due to the timing/fuel causing detonation in the headers. Leaning out the fuel from their chip adjustment (which was done 6 hours away when I took them the car so we could tune while driving) helped, but didnt solve the issues. Timing adjustments never solved the issue either.
So I was bound and determined to make this work...after all I design advanced telecommunications everyday for a living. This seemed to be more of the same...only different. First I called up Comp and asked them for another cam recommendation. I again told them I wanted as much cam as possible so long as it was suitable to the TPI unit from S&P. They stated they knew exactly what I needed and I installed the new cam. I also researched the web, learned about ALDL, and prom burning. I then bought a monitor/burner (another $500) from Craig Moates (who is very knowledgeable and helpful!), but I have yet to get this combination to work.
So understand, I could be simply doing something wrong. I am not above making mistakes. In fact I believe I am simply snakebit on this project and am growing tired of not "smiling" when I jump in the old car for a drive. This shouldnt be this difficult, but for whatever the reasons...it has been very difficult. For the sake of sanity, I will probably hang up the FI idea and go back to something easier...carbs. Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

Originally Posted by troy_cryer

Well...let me try to give a few more details so you know where I have been and where I am coming from.
First of all, the TPI from S&P looks cool. It was very expensive ($5K with everything because in 1998 this was the latest and greatest...or so they told me. And dont take this as a slam on these guys. They are about the nicest guys in the business, but I believe they have been learning FI on the customer's money. Otherwise we would have solved this in the 5 live attempts, and several mail order adjustments).
They sent me a chip which was designed for my original cam (which again, they specified). When the local speed shop dynoed the engine, we had to have the prom changed several times. Once it was on the road, it ran extremely rich and toasted the coated headers due to the timing/fuel causing detonation in the headers. Leaning out the fuel from their chip adjustment (which was done 6 hours away when I took them the car so we could tune while driving) helped, but didnt solve the issues. Timing adjustments never solved the issue either.
So I was bound and determined to make this work...after all I design advanced telecommunications everyday for a living. This seemed to be more of the same...only different. First I called up Comp and asked them for another cam recommendation. I again told them I wanted as much cam as possible so long as it was suitable to the TPI unit from S&P. They stated they knew exactly what I needed and I installed the new cam. I also researched the web, learned about ALDL, and prom burning. I then bought a monitor/burner (another $500) from Craig Moates (who is very knowledgeable and helpful!), but I have yet to get this combination to work.
So understand, I could be simply doing something wrong. I am not above making mistakes. In fact I believe I am simply snakebit on this project and am growing tired of not "smiling" when I jump in the old car for a drive. This shouldnt be this difficult, but for whatever the reasons...it has been very difficult. For the sake of sanity, I will probably hang up the FI idea and go back to something easier...carbs. Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

What are all your engine specs.?
Comp.ratio,lift,duration at .050,etc.

Troy Cryer Thought I'd just through my opion in this. My motor is alot smaller than yours at 305 bored to 315 and I have alot less cam than you but enough to give me a rough idle with a 218-224 dur.@.050 lift. .462-.469 110 lobe. I've probably tried at least 6 different carb combos including a 3 deuce and 2- 4 barrels. The 3 duece set up was not the new six shooter but a good friend of mine has a 383 stroker with the six shooter on his motor and he says it's just like the old set ups, hard to set up and tune. The carbs are alot easier to tune but once there set up he was happy. On mine I couldn't get my engine to idle because of two much cam for this engine but like you I wanted that hot rod look and sound. When I finally dial it in it ran great but not all the time. Took that off and went with 2 450 Holleys and they worke alot better but really to much carb for the 305. I adjusted the secondaries so they would hardley open and it ran fine. I'm now back to a single 4 barrel and I'm happy because I'm putting out 303 hp from this little engine, but I love 2 or 3 carbs so I might just order myself a six shooter and give it a try.

Whats the specs on your engine ,Chevy37?
I have a similar build 305 with the ex 262 comp cam.
Thoughts and opinions on your build and how it performs ?

Shawnlee28, My 305 was bored .060 over with new 9:1 flattop pistons and I also have the XE262 extreme energy cam. I'm running a edelbrock dual plane intake with a 600 cfm carb with 1 5/8 sanderson headers. The heads are stock with new valves guides, lifters, springs, etc. and it's been ported. Looking to put new heads on this summer. I'm running low gears of 2:76 and have a 9" ford rear with new gears of 3:73 going in in about 2 weeks. The tranny is a 350 and my truck only weighs 3,000 lbs with me in it and even with those gears i have turned a 103 at 14:56. I've got10,000 miles on the engine w/o any problems and the walker radiator keeps the temperature right at 180 degrees. I' running a electric duel pusher fan. Sorry Troy didn't mean to get anyway from your thread.

Originally Posted by troy_cryer

Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

well the way i see it is u cant cant cant just send stuff out to get done like that that would be like tell a blind/deaf person to set your carbs. then you are gonna spend about $3000 or more getting that 6 shooter going cause if my mind serves correctly that setup is like $2500 is it not. [has been know to fail]!!i am kinda wonderin if you are just to over cammed u may not have enough compression. but IMO if you wanna get that FI going u absolutely IMO need a chassis dyno whats another several days compared to what you have gone through whats $1000 dollars compared what u have gone through and gonna go through with that 6 shooter. my Idea is get a carb always adjust, get FI, get it done right, do it once

I really think the dual fours would be more suitable. I've ran them with 390's, 660's, and even 750 Dominators on one raspy BBF.... They do take a bit to get dialed in, but it's just parts changind, not like the "black arts" of EFI... My EFI was easy, cuz my nephew was right here to do everything with his lap top and computer knowledge, but when he was gone, the EFI was gone!!!!!

Here is the cam specs for my 383 SBC Stroker...which is smaller than the original cam I ran before last year.

Camshaft Specification Table
Part Number 12-418-8
Engine 1955-1998 Chevrolet
262ci-400ci
8cyl.
Grind Number CS XM 276HR-12
Description

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Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.503 0.51
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 276 282

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 28 68
Exhaust 75 27

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These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 110 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 224 230
Lobe Lift 0.335 0.34
Lobe Separation 112

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommended Valve Springs 986-16

______________________________________________________________________
Brodix Aluminum Heads

Model # -8 PRO
Intake Port 185 cc
Chamber Volume 67 cc
Valve Sizes 2.020, 2.050,
Intake/Exhaust 2.080/1.600

i need help trying to dial in all those air bleeds (8) of em, cant ya just send it to proform and have them go through it!?