Thread: 350 Build

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I just made a post about cams for a 350 or 327 that I plan to put into my wagon but wanted to make another thread just for this 350 of mine to help keep things organized since on this 350 I need push rods, lifters and everything unlike the 327 which just needs a cam... I have still yet to decide which engine to put into the wagon. Right now it has a 327 but I also have a 350 which I think in the end will be the right choice once it's built. One of these motors will be used in my 48 Chevy coupe and my thinking is that the 327 will be better for the 48 and a little different than the usual 350 sbc.
Anyways, I got this engine in a 96 S10 V8 swapped truck. The kid that sold me the truck said the engine and tranny had 50 miles on them and were rebuilt. Everything that the kid said was fine on the truck was not fine and most was a lie or cover up. What I did was tear this 350 down besides pulling the pistons and con rods to see if this was a lie or not since he said the first motor he put nitrous to and blew it up. He said this one never had any kind of nitrous go through it and from the looks of it, it looks fine. The cylinder walls dont have a ridge in them but I can't tell if they are fine or not. There are small scratches in them in all directions but nothing that my finger nail will grab into or catch on. Anyways, when I pulled the heads, my dumbass self didn't even think about the push rods and they fell out and hit the floor. Also I flipped the motor, again not thinking about the lifters) and they fell out hitting the floor and falling out of order. Some say you can just throw them back in and others say not to. I dont want to take a chance so am looking for a kit that will have new street/strip style cam with lifters push rods, and even springs will be fine along with timing gears and chain.
What would you guys recommend on this? Again this will be a daily driver but its a heavy 63 wagon, so a huge cam is NOT needed. I will most likely run a 600 cfm carb at most and an Edelbrock performer style intake manifold with headers and 3.55 gears in the back. I am thinking I will want mid range power for the highway.
Any idea on which cam and which full kit I will need for this? I have seen some kits with everything but I was not sure what the stock lift and duration of a 350 is and which kit to buy that will work with what I need. Thanks again for any info on this!

Don't even think about buying a cam until you know the exact static compression ratio of the motor, piston deck height, gasket compressed thickness, converter stall, rear gear ratio and tire size. If you need help figuring the SCR, just ask.

The lifters and cam are toast. Use the lifters for paperweights and the cam for a doorstop. If you had kept the lifters on their mated lobes and if the lifters still had some crown to them, you may have been able to re-use them in the motor. Lifters are machined on about a 50 inch radius on the bottoms. They are not flat when new. If you want to see this for yourself, drive a small nail down on the end of your work bench. Get a piece of string 50 inches long. Tie one end to the nail. Tie a ball point pen to the other end of the string. Stetch out the string and lay a piece of clean, white paper under the pen. Make a mark on the paper about 2 inches long. This is the arc you should be able to see on a lifter if you lay the lifter down on the paper and compare. No arc, junk.

Don't throw out the old valve springs. Even if you plan to use new springs, you should assemble the heads with the old springs in place to do the camshaft break-in.

I'm glad you told me the thing about the springs. I thought about getting heads instead of replacing springs, push rods, cam, lifters, etc etc but not sure. As for the gearing, it's got 3.55 gears, 14" wheels with 65 series tires I believe but will be putting 17 inches with a tall tire to help with highway speed RPM's and a TH350 transmission (later I will most likely add a 700r4).
I think what I will do is slowly build this engine and just use the 327 I have in the car now but that cam most likely needs to be changed because it has such a big lope and runs badly no matter how I tune it. I've had a few friends look at it and adjust it and they said it sounds like too big of a cam as well...

Tech,
I was hoping you may be able to help me with something on this 350 engine I am wanting to swap into my 63 Chevy II wagon. The wagon has a great running 327 that supposedly only has about 20,000 miles or less but for some reason it seems the cam in it is too huge of a lope and burning VERY rich to the point that it smells in the cab and your eyes will burn very badly. Also while in gear at stops it almost stalls out but doesn't. I swapped carbs on it, changed plugs (need to check timing again but doubt this is why it's lopey and rich). Instead of swapping cams on it and not really knowing the mileage, I have a 350 I pulled out of an S10 I had with a V8 in it that looks to have VERY low miles (guy said 50 miles only). The cylinder walls have no ridge and look clean, etc.
Anyways here is what I plan to do. I am selling my daily driver (Honda) this weekend to a buddy of mine at the fire dept and using the $3500 I am getting from it to put into this 63 wagon. The heads were taken off of the 350 and it needs new lifters, cam since I dont even know what it is, and push rods. I want to buy a new cam kit and maybe even just get all new heads for it. I just need help to decide on what top end kit to buy and what my overall compression should/will be. The pistons are flat tops with the relief indentions in them for the valves. If I email you detailed pictures do you think you may be able to help me out on what I should do and what you think about the engine?
My plan is to use this car for a daily driver and I am trying to push about 22 MPG city and 25 or so highway. I have a TH350 tranny that I am just going to use since I dont have money for a 700R4 and I will be looking for a 3.08 gear or possibly a 3.28 (I believe that is a Chevy gear?). I just want a good reliable engine/tranny combo that will get decent MPG and keeping it simple. I have an Edelbrock RPM intake manifold and a Weiland intake manifold (I will find out the exact one) that I can use. As for carb I am not sure on that. My guess is a plain Holley 600cfm tops.
I'd appreciate any info here since I am going to have money coming up in about 2 weeks and trying to plan out if it's worth me getting this wagon going for a daily or selling it.

BTW, either today or tomarrow I will get some more info on the heads that were on the 350 before I removed them. I believe they had pretty big chambers like 72cc but could have been 69 so that is something I definately need to figure out. I was going to buy some Vortec heads but not sure how much that will help me with power and keep good fuel mileage or if it will even help for around $650 bucks from summit.

Originally Posted by FMXhellraiser

Tech,
I was hoping you may be able to help me with something on this 350 engine I am wanting to swap into my 63 Chevy II wagon. The wagon has a great running 327 that supposedly only has about 20,000 miles or less but for some reason it seems the cam in it is too huge of a lope and burning VERY rich to the point that it smells in the cab and your eyes will burn very badly. Also while in gear at stops it almost stalls out but doesn't. I swapped carbs on it, changed plugs (need to check timing again but doubt this is why it's lopey and rich).

I'm not Tech... but I can't help but to think that if your 327 is great running you might be able to tweak out the little problems fairly easily. In the past I have chased problems that I thought were carb related that were actually timing related. If your cam is "too huge" ignore the factory timing specs and time it to where it runs the best with some trial and error. If your timing is off, it could cause your stalling and lopey idle. Also, smelly fumes in the passenger compartment might be an exhaust leak. Are you shooting fuel out of the tailpipe? Black sooty smoke? Get your timing taken care of before you try to play with any fuel issues. That's not what you asked, but I just thought I would put in my 2 cents...

65ny is correct about the ignition timing. A truckload of cam calls for a truckload of timing.

You didn't say what converter is behind the 327, but I'll assume a stock one. Using a stock converter will require some ignition curve, while a looser (3000-3500) converter could allow locked out timing with no centrifugal advance.

I always try to fix things with the least amount out of pocket, so let's proceed along that line. Get an ignition re-curve kit from Summit or wherever. Put 16 degrees of centrifugal advance in the distributor. Find a local shop with a distributor machine and set the dizzy for 16, all in by 2600-2800. Set the initial timing at the crank at 20 degrees. 20 plus 16 will give you 36 total. If the motor tries to kick back against the starter because of all the initial advance, install a momentary-off pushbutton that breaks the circuit on the wire going to the coil. Mount it on the dash or wherever you can mount it in the cabin. Push the momentary button to kill ignition while you turn the key to spin the motor. Once the motor is spinning, release the momentary pushbutton and the motor will fire. If you had a very loose converter, I would suggest locking out the centrifugal by using small tie wraps on the centrifugal weights to cinch them at zero and use 36 degrees at the crank with the momentary switch.

This is only a stop-gap operation to get you operating with the 327 until you can either find time to change the cam in it or build up a mild-mannered 350. I wish I could have gotten to you before you laid out money for another flat tappet block. Here in Phoenix, in the last 3 weeks, I've seen two rebuildable roller long blocks on craigslist for under $200. If you put the word Vortec into the search under auto parts, you can find these motors. The ideal one to start with is the '96 to '98 5700 Vortec from a Chevy truck. That motor will have the L31 Vortec heads on it and it won't get much better than that for a starting point for a streetable 350 or 383 build. The motors I called about still had the roller lifters (re-useable), dog bones and spider. One of them was a 4-bolt block.

I'm just including this for others on the board. DON'T EVER BUY ANOTHER FLAT TAPPET BLOCK TO START A BUILD WITH.

FMX, do not buy heads or cam or anything else from ANYWHERE until I see pics of the pistons and you measure the piston deck height.

Sounds good guys, I appreciate the help! The reasons I will not use the 327 is because even though the previous owner said it had "probably" (were his words) 20,000 miles or less, I still dont trust what other people say and do not plan to get this car stripped, sand blasted and COMPLETELY gone through and painted and find out the motor doesn't last but a year or so on me. Also it's a 69 block and there are no mounting holes in the head for my A/C conversion and power steering conversion which I am sure can still be done but with expensive mounting brackets.
I will first get some pictures of the 350 for you and have you tell me what you think about it. I'd like to use the 350 already since I have it torn down and I will know my own cam and head setup on it. If I keep this 350 then I may just keep the heads that are on it and just put new lifters and push rods in it with a spring kit and be done. Like I said, I want a reliable daily driver out of this car and a big cam is not going to help with that and fuel mileage. As for the exhaust, it's not leaking it's just that it turnsdown under the car near the rear doors/rear end and it is a little black but mostly just raw fuel (BADLY). This was done by the PO and it's something I am changing. I dont need exhaust fumes comming back into the cab and plus it's much too loud for a daily driver.
Before we go any further, let me get those pictures posted up here sometime today with the head information and block information. Now with the deckheight how should I measure this?
As for the 327 and powerglide, I dont mind pulling it and not using it because I have a long future plan of building a T bucket in the next year or so and have been gathering parts for it for a long time. I was first going to use a 302 motor in it but I didnt have a Ford tranny for it but now I have a Chevy combo, S10 rear end, fuel cell and a bunch of other parts to get a T bucket going.
Thanks again guys!

Do you own a dial caliper?

Tech,
No I do not actually. Wish I did but most of my tools I have are for detailing or auto body. I really need a set of calipers because there have been numerous times I've needed them.
I also do not know about getting the pictures of the engine today but am still going to try to here a little later and post them tonight. If not then it will be Thursday before I post them.

OK, when produced at the factory, blocks are cut with a nominal block deck height of +/- 9.025" (centerline of the main bearing bore to the block deck where the head bolts on). This assumes that the block has not been decked by some knot-head before you got it. Adding up your stack of parts will tell you the piston deck height and the gasket to use for a tight squish. 350 crank radius of 1.74" + 5.700" rod length + 1.560" piston compression height = 9.000". Theoretically, this would leave a piston deck height of 0.025", which, together with an 0.015" head gasket would produce a squish of 0.040".

However, don't assume anything. Always measure your clearances before final machining and assembly. You still have the pistons in the short block and that's good. With the motor on a stand, tilt it so that one bank is level. Using a steel rule and a set of feeler gauges, we'll find the actual piston deck height. Standing at the side of the block, span the edge of your rule across the bore about 1/4" from the edge of the bore at either the 3 oclock or 9 oclock position of the piston. Slide feeler gauge blades between the bottom of the edge of the steel rule and the piston crown. Checking the piston at noon or 6 oclock will allow the piston to rock on its wrist pin and tilt one way or the other, giving you an erroneous reading. 3 or 9 is directly above the pin. Rotate the crank a few degrees backward and forward and re-check your measurement to make sure the piston is at TDC. If you find a piston deck height of 0.020" to 0.030", you'll be fine with an 0.015" steel shim gasket (assuming the block decks are smooth and parallel). Do this measurement on each of the four corners of the block to see if there is a slope to the block front to rear and/or a difference from one bank to the other that would require cutting the block decks to correct the fault.

Tech, again you have helped me a lot here and I will go ahead and do this whenever I can get a buddy with tools over here. I have no engine tools such as micrometers, dial calipers, bore gauges, etc etc. The tools that you are speaking of, where should/can I buy these at? I was looking at Summit and see they have quite a variety of tools but not sure how good they are. Instead of borrowing a friends of mine I wouldn't mind buying my own because I really need them for other builds that I have planned.
As for the pictures, it just didn't happen tonight. The engine is at my parents house and I have been gone a lot lately and need to get over there to get the pictures, then bring them back to the fire department and use their computer to post them here so it is a bit of a hassle and I have been studying for my finals in a personal finance class at the local college. The final exam is tomarrow so I will be busy with that all day and tomarrow night I will take them and post them on Thursday. I will get some close pictures of the cylinder walls, the tops of the pistons and underneath as well. Like I said, I pulled the heads, oil pan, water pump, fuel pump, etc. The water pump was noisy so I figured I might as well replace all of this and know that it's all new and in good working order.
I am very picky as far as engines go and wanting to make sure I know everything that is in them and that it's all done correctly and no corners cut. One thing I will do tonight is order a SBC engine building book on Amazon.com There is one that I have to find that a friend has and said is old but very good and explains the basics of measuring and assembling a sbc.

Ok Tech heres what I was able to get today... I have pictures of the engine block and then the heads themselves with the casting numbers, etc. I took the pictures late tonight and will post them tomarrow when I am not half asleep (it's 2:40 AM here). The cylinder walls have NO ridge at the top and there are only a few scratches that catch my nail on a cylinder or two but barely (the run from top of cylinder to bottom).
Overall it looks clean but the valves and tops of piston have carbon build up. I was able to get a little paint thinner on a rag and wipe the carbon off the top of one piston to read the numbers on the tops but that was all I did. I will post the pictures tomarrow when I get up and see what you think. I still need to wait until I can get my buddy over here to measure the cylinders and/or deck height so you can further help me on this but that may be until this weekend or most likely next weekend when he has time (he lives an hour away and has all the tools and knowledge to find out this info. I want to get both of your guys' oppinions though. He is one that likes to keep things simple and on a budget so I know that if the block turns out fine he will say to throw a basic 350hp type cam (corvette specs is what he said, I dont know) and put new springs, lifters and push rods and run the thing.

if you base this off a 9000 deck there are 3 pistons ch on them 1.540 cast and some hypers and race speed pros 1.560 and some hypers as well as some use 1550.so you should know your piston ch before you get it deck if at 9000 deck with the stock cast piston you will be in the hole 020 and get the block deck off crank and cam center or a bhj tru deck . that way the deck is on the money. the last 350 i just did was very bad the decks were so far off that that 015 they were just coming in

Good to know. I dont know what kind of pistons they are. I will have to look into it further, I know there are numbers on the top but no clue what the hell they mean.