Thread: 327 for 88 firebird

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Hello club hotrod, This is my first post here. My name is Nic and this is a build me and my old man are taking on together. Anyway down to the background for some basic info.

I picked up a "rebuilt 327 with a 2 speed powerglide" for $300
The 327 is the 210hp small journal .030. It features the original crank in great condition, The pistons are the older sealed power aka trw l2165f. The ones with the 4 valve reliefs adding like 5.4cc per. The Cam that is in it is a crane energizer 284 h12. The heads are stock 3876775 which means they have 75cc chambers with 1.72 intake and 1.5 exhaust. Which my intuition tells me will prob make it a dog coming off the line. It has an edelbrock perform 4101 intake and a perform 1406 610cfm carb.

Now for the questions: 1. Is this cam a little big for a 327. As title states it will be going into an 88 firebird.

2. are the cam and heads mix matched. (it looked like it had different heads on it but you never know.)

3. and if so would it be better to buy a smaller cam or better heads to get some launch off the line?

The car will be mostly a street car this particular motor is goin in to replace the stock motor while I take my time rebuilding it. for the time being the powerglide stays. I know I could go with a th350 or muncie 4 speed, but the goal is to get this finished as quickly as possible, as cheaply as possible without having a complete dog while im riding.

Any help here or am I just way out of line on this one.

Well, for quick and easy with respectable performance and some really nice street manners the Edelbrock Performer RPM package might be worth looking at--though I'm not sure what your definition of cheap is.... I don't know my Edelbrock numbers so well, is the 4101 intake the Performer, or the Performer RPM??? I've heard the Performer intake is little (if any) better then stock. Friend of mine put the entire Performer RPM package on a balanced, squared, and zero decked 350 with flat tops (2 valve reliefs, think they were a Mahle piston?), a bit looser converter that stalls at about 2500 RPM, and a glide. It's in a stock weight '79 Camaro--it's no rocket ship, but it certainly isn't a slouch either!!!!! He also substituted a hydraulic roller cam instead of the flat tappet cam that was in the 'package'. Trick Flow also has some moderately priced head, cam, and intake packages for small cube engines, too. I know from personal experience that their 'twisted wedge' heads on a small block Ford with a hydraulic power makes GREAT power for a 302 cu. in. engine, no reason that technology won't work well on a 327 Chevy, too!

Anyhow, welcome to CHR and when you have time put us up some pictures of your 'Bird, we love pictures!!!! Best of luck on your build!

Some of the guys (well, lots of them) are more current on SBC's then I am, hopefully they'll stop by and fill you in on another option, the Vortec heads. I've never messed with them, but I've seen some fairly strong cars running a set of them!

Welcome to CHR Nic –

You don’t say how old you are, but your father is a lucky man to have a son that wants to do a build with him!

A couple things –

The 327 is a great motor and I for one would build one in a heartbeat – especially for a period car like a ’55 – ’66 Chey. For an ’88 Firebird, I’d be more inclined to go with a 350 – but the 327 is okay if you know the limitations.

Your heads are in fact a 1.72 / 1.5 - 74.66cc configuration. There are several challenges associated with the use of these heads. First, they have no accessory holes and mounting accessories can be a real pain. Second – they will not perform well with the cam you have.

The four relief cuts in your pistons would lead me to believe that they may be similar to the current Speed Pro ZL2165F30 pistons and as such, your compression ratio is probably in the 7.5-8.5:1 neighborhood with the above referenced heads. That’s not near enough for the length of cam you’ve got. I’d say a minimum of 9.5:1 for this cam.

The cam is way too much for this configuration – it will not only be a dog “off the line” but a dog in general. The lift (.480) is pushing the limits of the heads in their stock form and most certainly mandates pinned or better yet, tapped studs. The valves are too small, the runners are too short, and the compression ratio is too low. It will be a disaster with a Powerglide and anything less than 2800-3000 RPM stall.

If you’re dead set on the 327, I’d get rid of the current cam, go with a “near stock” cam (like a Summit Racing SUM-1102 – 266/272 - .440/442 lift), throw some headers and Flowmasters on it and call it good.

Tango is a 327 “guru” and may chime in with some really good suggestions.

Good luck and again, welcome to CHR!
Glenn

Welcome to CHR plenty of GOOD advice here good luck with your build

Thanks for the replies dave and glen. I am 24 my dad is 53, were really close. anyway... I will take a look at those twisted wedge heads. I believe the 1401 is just the performer but I cant be sure without the time to look them up. (i am on break at work atm).
And Glen that confirms what i was afraid of on the heads. I believe the pistons that you speak of are the speed pro or very similar. I came up with roughly the same CR numbers you have I was afraid of that as well. And thought the cam was a little much for the stock heads lift wise. So the question becomes better heads or smaller cam. Lets say my budget is around 1200 to 1500, but lets also say i need the quickest least expensive option. It will only be in the firebird for a few years lets say 3-5 before the original motor will have been rebuilt. after which the 327 will be put it in a '70 nova 2 door if memory serves.

And dave i am also entertaining the idea of those vortec heads, If im not mistaken the combustion chamber is 64 cc with a 1.94 intake and a 1.5 exhaust but i could me mistaken. Am i correct in assuming this would drive the CR closer to the 9:5 to 1 area glen?

Thanks fisher... proud to be here with yall's community.

There's several variables on the c/r, i.e., height and gasket thickness but 64cc would definitely be a step in the right direction. Couple that with larger valves and a longer runner and things will start to come alive. I would still caution against the cam you now have - even with some significant improvements in the heads you'll need a high stall speed for the Powerglide (unless you want to go with different rear end ratio..)

Keep us informed and we'll throw our two cents your way!

Glenn

Originally Posted by viva la speed

And dave i am also entertaining the idea of those vortec heads, If im not mistaken the combustion chamber is 64 cc with a 1.94 intake and a 1.5 exhaust but i could me mistaken. Am i correct in assuming this would drive the CR closer to the 9:5 to 1 area glen?

I don't know much at all about the Vortec's, other then used as part of a package of carefully selected parts they seem to put out some really nice power. Nothing like a good aluminum head with a lot of CNC work, but they probably wouldn't cost you even half as much!!!!!!

Wow, building one with your Dad!!!!! That's great, brings back a lot of really good memories for me!!!! I started racing karts at about age 8, Dad was my number one "car owner" all the way from Karts to 410" Sprint Cars. He was also my biggest fan---and my biggest critic!!!! Enjoy your time work with your Father, it will give you a lifetime of remembering all the good times you had wrenchin' on cars!!!!

Yeah yrs ago the small journal crank everyone wanted for less fiction.We also put in a 283 small journal crank for a de-stroker.Spun those to the moon.But any how,given a consideration of a head swap,you don't want to get with a cast iron head and today's gas too high of a static compression ratio.SCR.That would be adding octane booster for the yrs you say you want to use it.The first link I am posting is for SCR and you can play with head cc's to see what that would be.

AutomotiveCalculators and Converters

The second link is dynamic compression ratio and that is considering the cam timing and how much compression is bled off because of that.

Wallace Racing - Automotive Calculators

You need to know to a certain degree given the bore size of the 327 that no matter what upgrade in a head you make the intake valve is shrouded by the bore size.

I had a 305 in a 1987 Formula FB with a 700R4, quadrajet carb and everything else stock. I installed a Comp 252HE cam - 206-206 dur. at .050, .430 lift, 110LSA and it was a really great cam. Lots of low and mid range power and still got decent gas mileage. Even with some 1.92-1.50 heads this cam would work well in your 327. Hot Rod did a cam test on a 9.7 c.r. 350 with AFR 190 heads and one of the cams was the 252 cam. The engine was a zz4, with edel. perf. intake, 750 holley, headers and it made 348 hp which is what the old L79 222-222- cam made on the same engine. They then used a Comp 268HE 218-218 cam and it made 380 HP. I would definately go with a 350 trans or better yet a 700R4 with its low first gear ratio. Good luck.

Ok, SO it has been awhile since my last post. As we all know life throws us curveballs, and knuckleballs to go along with the fastballs. Either way I'm back again still with the 327 build working, But me and dad did get some new things to work with. for starters:

Now have acquired a running 78' nova
with 305 and
th350
another 305 and possibly a 700r but that's still questionable
plus the 2.8 firebird 89'

So now my original plan has been altered a little bit. instead of the 327 dropping into the firebird it will probably end up being the running 305 but since I plan to use the th350 on the 327 the 305 will probably get to see some time drug down by that powerglide.

The 327 on the other hand still needs to be rebuilt. To go into the 78' nova. since I have access to the other 305, I have another head and cam choice to make. So if you guys don't mind helping me out a little

the 327 is bored over.030, has those 2044p pistons the stock 3876775 heads and of course the Crane Energizer 284 h 12. Now I also have a set of 354434 heads which I believe is 60 cc but the valves are like 1.7/1.3 or something like that. Am I wrong in assuming that these heads would help get that compression ratio up, but kill the performance by not being able to clear the exhaust.

If this is the case then I guess I could always pick up one of the aftermarket stock replacement cams and go that route. anyway looking forward to seeing some comments and glad to be back on the build

Use the 775 heads on the 327. Put new stock springs and seals on them and bolt them on with this head gasket....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1094
If you can afford to buy a little better valve spring than stock, buy these....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99848-16
Slide this cam into the motor straight up on the marks....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-10003
Using these new Crane hydraulic lifters....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99277-16
Read through this tutorial several times so that you completely understand using a flat tappet hydraulic camshaft in today's world......
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks
Use a stock cast iron intake manifold and 1 5/8" long-tube headers. Install an X or H pipe in the exhaust system before the mufflers.

The motor will be about 8.7:1 static compression ratio, 8.00:1 dynamic compression ratio, 0.041" squish, will make good power and run on cat piss regular pump gas without detonating. I'm pretty sure you will like this motor.

While you're doing it, you might just as well find true top dead center so you can time the motor with a light and know it's right.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...op_dead_center

When setting the valves, just before you fire the motor the first time, follow these instructions so that you don't end up with the valves too tight and frag the cam.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...stment_SBC/BBC

You wouldn't believe the amount of time that several of us fellows put into writing these tutorials, so use them to your benefit. Read through them thoroughly several times to be sure you understand them and you will be rewarded with a guaranteed good build.

When you're buying gaskets, buy the best that money can buy. Buy 2 sets of intake gaskets. The first set you will use to bolt the intake manifold on after you torque down the heads. Then you will remove the intake manifold and inspect the gaskets for being pinched thin all the way around each and every port. This is where a lot of fellows get into trouble, by not checking this. If one or more of the ports aren't sealing shut on the outside of the port, that will result in a vacuum leak that can be found by spraying a combustible liquid around between the intake and the head while the motor is running. If you have a vacuum leak, the motor will rev up when you find the leak with the flammable spray, because you will have corrected the lean condition just for a moment. Disassembly and cutting the intake manifold at the machine shop will be necessary to fix the problem.

If, on the other hand, there is a vacuum leak on the bottom of the gasket, you will never find it with a combustible spray. The motor will inhale oily vapors in that cylinder when the intake valve opens, resulting in a lean cylinder that will run hot and may spit out the head gasket. That cylinder will also be pulling in oil from the crankcase, so it will be burning oil that will be noticeable on the spark plug for that cylinder or cylinders. So, follow my instructions of using 2 sets of intake gaskets, one to put the manifold on the first time and the other set to put the manifold on for good, after you inspect all the ports for being pinched all the way around the port.

Those heads and intake manifold have been around since the 60's and may have been owned by any number of rodders who may have cut them on different angles. Never assume anything when dealing with parts of this vintage.

Thanks for all the advice tech. Thanks so much for the links to the exact parts I will need later, you saved me a lot of time and effort. I understand your frustration on the tutorials, I write for another forum that id rather not mention here so I feel your pain. And since I come from a line of painters and body men, the read up was absolutely needed. especially since painters don't build motors lol.
Now I have one more question for you I may have access to a pair of 14102193 350 heads (free) numbers on them are 65 cc combustion chamber and 1.94/1.5 exhaust. With either the crane 260 h10 (one from the link) or the 1102, would these heads have any added benefit or would they just be not worth it, and more worthy of one of my 305's. Ps I feel your right about liking the build, I enjoy my 305's, and dads 350 is (rebuilt by a local racer) sweet. But every 327 I ever heard, sounded like it meant for me. Thanks again.

Tech, I notice your valve adjustment proceedure differs greatly from what I'm familiar with from my Chilton's. Yours has more crank turns; any other differences between the two?

Originally Posted by firebird77clone

Tech, I notice your valve adjustment proceedure differs greatly from what I'm familiar with from my Chilton's. Yours has more crank turns; any other differences between the two?

Actually, there are only two complete turns of the crank to adjust all 16 valves (720 degrees of the crank). I've adjusted them different ways also, but this to me is the simplest and the most unlikely to screw up for a new guy doing the work. I guess the other difference is "jiggling" the pushrod up and down instead of "spinning" it. I got the valves too tight for years, due to being unable to feel the difference between when I began compressing the spring inside the lifter body. Maybe you can tell when you engage the spring if you build motors for a living day in and day out, but for a newbie, he will always end up with the valves too tight. I learned the "jiggle" method from Denny, a fellow who used to be on this forum. It works every time, no matter who does it.
Some of you old timers on here probably remember Denny. I believe he had a 410 FE Ford motor in a Chevy truck and was from Illinois. Denny and I butted heads a few times, but he was a pretty savvy fellow in many ways. Speaking of long-lost members, I read somewhere that Tango died.