Thread: Brake Booster riddle - can you solve it?

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You all know I love my old school buick finned drums and I'll be darn if I am going to take them off and put disk brakes in the their place!!

You also know they really don't break worth a you-know-what. I know I can't expect miracles from adding a power booster but I was told a power booster would improve break performance by about 30% or more. Good enough for me! 30% more is more than deedlee squat. Sign me up!

NOW HERE IS THE RIDDLE PART:

I have weird custom cross members on my frame that are (SEE PHOTO BELOW) in the way and unless we cut through the frame we cannot fit a conventional power booster/master cylinder unit.

So the next best thing is a remote booster I could shlap a bit further down (on the other side of the cross member, or anywhere else under my frame). I have room, just not enough room to fit the current lareger round remote boosters found on the market today... Unless you guys know of a smaller booster on the market I don't know about (send link).

ANY SUGGESTIONS?

I don't know but from the picture it seems you have a lot of room before you get to the trans pan in depth why not just lower the M/C and booster a bit. Will it fit then??

Before you think about boosters, have you determined what pedal ratio you have? It maybe easier to alter this than fit additional hardware. I like a 6:1 or a 7:1 pedal ratio without using a booster/servo.
Boosters are usually used for discs because of the higher pressures needed and they lessen the driver effort needed to operate discs brakes.
Another thing to consider is high lift cams can cause the booster to run out of vacuum at tickover (especially in traffic when you need your brakes!!), the smaller boosters (the 7" under the floor types) are very prone to this.
I guess you have 40 ford brakes with buick drums that are the non energising type? Are the linings adjusted ok?
Mel

I'm thinkin' along the lines of Mel's questions instead of a booster. Do you know the diameter of the master cylinder? Did you know you can get more pressure from the same amount of leg effort with a smaller diameter master cylinder? The pedal will move further than it does now, but will be easier to push and therefore will exert more pressure on the wheel cylinders with the same amount of leg effort you are using now.

By the way, I just viewed your site and I'm very, very jealous.....

This months Rod & Custom has an article on a new electric booster system that looks pretty neat. The company is called ABS power brakes. I'd bet they are pricey,but ya might check em out. They are located in Orange,California.
www.abspowerbrake.com

Faith: I scoured all of your pictures to see if I could get a good look at your backing plates, and found none that were clear. What I was looking for was to see if you had '39 to '42 Ford backing plates, or '46 to '48 Ford backing plates.

How you tell the difference is that the early ones have four 3/4 inch socket sized adjustment bolts on the outside of the backing plate, and the later ones only have two.

I think I saw 4 in one picture, and that is what I have on my '27. If so, two of these are used for "minor" adjustments, and two are used for "major" adjustments. Brian will tell you that it takes some playing around to adjust these properly, because he posted a thread on this a while back.

I suspect that your brakes are not set up right, or adjusted properly.

Seriously, the brakes you have are fine for this weight of a rod. You just need to work out some of the bugs on it. They will never "feel" like your modern SUV you drive, but they are still very effective.

Don

The first problem that I would address with your prakes is the path of the brake line to the rear. That is too close to the exhaust for me. You can easily boil the brake fluid and cause several brake problems.

Correcting this in itself may be enough to satisfy your braking needs. If not, then remove the master cylinder and find out what size piston is in there.

On another note, I have the same finned drums and have plenty of stopping power-on the original 4600 pound car.

With the healthy cam the engine is running she might not have enough vacumn for a booster.

If the brakes aren't working properly or adjusted and maintained properly, no booster regardless of the size will help..... Bad brakes are bad brakes....

If you REALLY like the Buick finned drum look, $o-Cal has a look-alike with discs. I've seen several and the only thing that gives them away is a duct.

Here's the web site: http://www.est1946.com/index.asp?Pag...ROD&ProdID=957

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

If the brakes aren't working properly or adjusted and maintained properly, no booster regardless of the size will help..... Bad brakes are bad brakes....

Dave has hit the thing on the head. No, she doesn't need a booster, and no, she certainly doesn't need to throw out the whole system and go exotic. She needs someone who knows brakes to go through the entire system and fix and adjust what is there. If she has early Ford brakes on the front with Buick drums, and typical 8 or 9 inch Ford brakes on the rear (Haven't seen what's back there, so I am assuming) this car will stop just fine.

Are discs and SoCal stuff more modern? Sure. And the SoCal setup sort of gives you the look of the traditional Buick set up. But for us diehards who really want traditional, only one setup will do, and that is the setup she, and I are running. I am not defending this setup simply because I am running it, but because for years and years, day in and day out, I drove my '27 and the brakes could not have been better even if they were discs. The car stopped on the proverbial dime, with no pull or fade. Pedal pressure was perfect, and as for getting them wet, I live in Florida, where it rains just about every day in the Summer, and many times the rest of the year. I have driven through rainstorms where I could not see the car in front of me, and the brakes never diminished whatsoever.

The secret is in the setup and adjustment. Faith just needs some knowledgable rod builder or brake person to go through the car for her.

Don

PS: I have two other thoughts on this. Maybe Faith is comparing the feel of these brakes to her daily driver SUV that she mentioned she also owns, and secondly, maybe, being a female, and naturally a little weaker than males, the pedal is tougher for her to push. That isn't a chauvinistic comment, simply a fact of life. My ex-wife wanted to drive my '27 one time, and was mad because she couldn't push the clutch down. To me it was stiff, but very comfortable. Just a thought.

Since Faith actually double posted, this was my response from the other thread:

"To further Don's comments above as far as adjustment, Ford used in their passenger cars, 1939 to 1948, a Lockheed design brake. It was not one of ol' Hank's better ideas. These brakes were marginal without some regular maintenance and only fair with on the cars they were designd for - on a 2500 pound street rod, plenty good . Not only did the star wheel adjuster need regular attention, they needed to be centered on the drum surface. If they were't centered, your effective brake surface would be limited, often to just a very small patch, top or bottom. There is an eccentric that allows you to center the linings. Another thing or two to look at is whether the shoes are on correctly. With the Lockheed design, the LONG shoe goes on the front rather than the opposite with the later self-energizing Bendix design. Lockheeds are rigidly fastened to the anchor and then to the backing plate while Bendix are floating on pins and springs. Another item to consider is whether those 50 plus year old Buick drums have been turned to the point that standard thickness brake shoes don't have almost full contact. Then if you have the pickup backing plates, then my guess is that they are Bendix style - another bag of worms. But even these have adjustable eccentrics and drum wear and brake lining thickness and installation have to be considered. Whatever, drum brake linings need to be "arced" (ground)to the drums OD." Note = S/B ID not OD, (corrected in other thread as well)

My preference is discs, but then my project car is being built new"

A big advantage to discs is the reduction of unsprung weight, making for better handling and reducing wear and tear a bit. The $o-Cal with only minimally reduce the unsprung weight. My biggest criticism with the $o-Cal setup is the enormous price penalty you have to pay just to use their product/name.

With the price of real Buick drums and the associated early Ford hubs, etc getting so high these days, the SoCal setup isn't as outrageous as it once was, but it is still up there. I really like the Wilson Welding setup too. My kid just bought one, he bought the whole shooting match.........backing plates, hubs, adaptors, etc. They are comparable in cost to the early Ford/Buick setup, but really are a nice piece. I actually think I will use a set of these when I redo my '27, now that I have "borrowed" the front brakes and stuff for the T.

Nice thing about the Wilsons is that they use readily available components, and feature modern, self energizing design. Plus, I like the look of the finned backing plate. Bob P has a set featured in his gallery in case anyone hasn't seen these. I hope he doesn't mind, but I am including that picture here. (Bob, the check is in the mail )

Don

Don,
You're probably correct about the pricing on this particular $o-Cal item. My biggest complaint is when I walk from the $o-Cal booth to Yearwood, Yogi's or Parr and find exactly the same item. Take a small buck ferinstance - I wanted a diff vent - $o-Cal's was $16 for a Sun Spec, but packaged in their package. Exactly the same piece at Yearwood was $10. (And yes, I was too lazy to make my own for a buck or two). Some of the $o-Cal stuff is unique, but so is their pricing stucture

I really like that Wilson Welding backing plate - maybe someday they'll have a disc brake setup as well. They also link to Knecht Equipment that also has some engine turned neat stuff.

You realise that the Buick brakes can be easily adapted to the Ford spindles? Then you have great looking, and great working brakes.