Thread: reality check

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cool give them hell al

Originally posted by The Al Show
I just got back from one o them ricer sites. I joined a bunch of them. Called myself DSSA from Philly and proceeded to tell them that ricers were crap and they should buy a hot rod or a real American muscle car if they want to go fast. I made fun of their wings and fart cans. Man I really stirred up a hornets nest. I'll go back next week and poke a stick in it again.

Whoooaaa----Zing!

Already on the ones that I could care anything about under that name. Share the URLs so that we can all get a good laugh out of it--myself included.

SHEESH....I step out fer a couple days, and come back to find out that a full scale flame fest has occurred in my absence.........sorry I missed it....

Originally posted by DSSA
It depends on what "Lower ETs" means. If you're talking 10s or better, you're probably right. The cubes really come in to play.

DSSA,

If you read through some of the other posts on the site, I think you'll find that there have been quite a few discussions of this particular topic at different times. (Maybe you have already seen them??) My original posting in this particular thread was kind of a carry over from those other postings. Probably much like the thoughts and opinons of others that are posted in this particular thread are a carryover from those other postings as well.

Anyway, I was not, and am not interested in debating the cost structure of building a race engine, foreign or domestic. I say that because many other factors besides those two come into play and I would be willing to bet that I could build a SBC that would turn in faster times for less money than a lot of the Bullet proof 4 bangers that are "built" out there. Conversely, I'm sure that there are people (perhaps like yourself) that could probably take a rice banger and build it so it would take said small block for less money than I would probably imagine and maybe even for less money than I built the small block for. I don't doubt your skill because I have no reason to, and I don't really care who doubts my skills because I believe that I have a pretty good grip on what I am capable of. I believe the statement I originally made read something like this:

Could guys spend money on old muscle to fix it up and turn in lower ets for less money????

The key word there was COULD. Similar to the way you pointed out what was or wasn't said by you, in some of your later postings, I never said that ALL muscle cars WOULD turn in lower ETs for less $$$ than rice. It really comes down to the tuner.

In any event my point wasn't about race motors and $$. I was simply attempting to give my views on the rice phenomenon that has swept the country and what I believe is generally causing it.

Now for my own part, I too consider myself to have an open mind, and I guess, in the end, I was simply trying to bridge a gap of understanding between the two sides of the fence you were talking about.

Do I choose a particular side of that fence to live on? Yes. Does that mean that those who choose to live on the other side of the fence are wrong? No I don't believe so. Does it mean that just because people disagree with me that they don't have an open mind? No, I don't believe so. Does it mean that those who choose not to have an open mind about a particular issue are wrong? No, I don't believe so. Is someone who disagrees with me and agrees with "the majority" necessarily a lemming? No, I don't think so, and if I did believe that, I would have to question how open my own mind really was.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I would be foolish to think that I was going to change it. The only thing I can really do is offer them another angle to view it from and leave it at that. Let them do their own thinking and make up their own minds. Some, as we have all witnessed in these postings, have already gone through this process and made up their minds, maybe they did it 10, 15, 20 or 30 years ago or more. They've chose their path, and I am just relatively starting to choose mine. I can't fault them for having been where I am at. Nor can I say that they don't have an open mind simply because they've already been here and made a decision about how they feel about it.

Generally, age and experience are on their side, not mine. I respect that. And, generally, youth and a closer connection to what kids are thinking about are on mine because I've been there more recently. Our views on a particular issue are heavily influenced by where we stand.....This issue is no different.

One final thought, and this is by no means an attack or a put down, just something I have noticed over the years. The smartest people I have ever met didn't waste any time telling me how smart they were....

Cheers,
Firechicken

Firechicken,

A couple of things.

1) I nowhere in the discussion put down domestics, and said several times that I admire quite a few that I've seen.

2) The "IQ statement" is something you need to read over again. One poster stated that their "Level of thinking was much higher than mine, because they tested in the "genius" range in an IQ test.". My rebuttal was that, I too tested high, but IQ tests typically don't mean much of anything in the real world. Even most psychologists don't put much weight in them. So in no way, shape, or form, was I "bragging about my intelligence" at any time in that reference--just simply putting that if you rate your intelligence via an IQ test, then your basis is pretty weak.

3) The comment was "Could guys spend money on old muscle to fix it up and turn in lower ets for less money????" As you said. And your statement concerning it would have been 100% correct, *IF* it hadn't preceded the following quote: " Sure, then they'd be just like the rest of us "old timers". Which changes it from a question to a comment that you admittedly disagreed with in your post. (Which I agree with)

4) I in no way, shape, or form tried to put down domestics in light of imports, nor tried to convert anyone. As I stated in my original post "Don't lump us (import owners) in the same basket".

So, in essence, defending those of us with imports that think "T-72 turbo, Cams, Stand-alone EFI" and not "Neon lights, and Altezzas" when the word "modifications" come to mind. We're not all driving around street racing every domestic car we stop next to at a stoplight, etc., and we build our own motors, port our own heads, etc. The *same* things that most hardcore domestic enthusiasts do, but some people seem to see the words "Import Owners" and insist on thinking that we're all nun-rapists that would sell our souls for colored LED windshield squirters.

My arguements were against the stereotyping of all "Import Owners". Sure, other people can have their narrow-minded views that anything without a blue-oval/bowtie/etc. are junk, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them--and in my doing-so, the flame fest began. *shrug*

It's funny though--it's usually the hardcore Domestic guys that I've met and spoken with who are really into the hands-on build-ups, are usually the ones who give much respect to the guys running quick times with the imports. And typically (notice I didn't say "all") the ones with less knowledge in performance areas that are so quick to put down anything that they don't own.

One of the most hardcore builders/racers that I've ever had the pleasure of speaking to (Mr. John Lingenfelter, RIP) was also the most enthusiastic about the import trend as well. If one didn't know who he was, you'd have thought he was just a regular hobbyist like the rest of us. But I suppose he was an idiot for appreciating well built race cars regardless of make as well.

Man, you guys have to all get your little digs in. If you really, I mean really, don't care what others think, then let this dead horse lie and quit flogging it.

It is an endless, meaningless dicussion. It will go on forever untill someone tires of getting in the last word.

THANK YOU Dean!!!

Originally posted by DSSA
Firechicken,

A couple of things.

1) I nowhere in the discussion put down domestics, and said several times that I admire quite a few that I've seen.

2) The "IQ statement" is something you need to read over again. One poster stated that their "Level of thinking was much higher than mine, because they tested in the "genius" range in an IQ test.". My rebuttal was that, I too tested high, but IQ tests typically don't mean much of anything in the real world. Even most psychologists don't put much weight in them. So in no way, shape, or form, was I "bragging about my intelligence" at any time in that reference--just simply putting that if you rate your intelligence via an IQ test, then your basis is pretty weak.

3) The comment was "Could guys spend money on old muscle to fix it up and turn in lower ets for less money????" As you said. And your statement concerning it would have been 100% correct, *IF* it hadn't preceded the following quote: " Sure, then they'd be just like the rest of us "old timers". Which changes it from a question to a comment that you admittedly disagreed with in your post. (Which I agree with)

4) I in no way, shape, or form tried to put down domestics in light of imports, nor tried to convert anyone. As I stated in my original post "Don't lump us (import owners) in the same basket".

So, in essence, defending those of us with imports that think "T-72 turbo, Cams, Stand-alone EFI" and not "Neon lights, and Altezzas" when the word "modifications" come to mind. We're not all driving around street racing every domestic car we stop next to at a stoplight, etc., and we build our own motors, port our own heads, etc. The *same* things that most hardcore domestic enthusiasts do, but some people seem to see the words "Import Owners" and insist on thinking that we're all nun-rapists that would sell our souls for colored LED windshield squirters.

My arguements were against the stereotyping of all "Import Owners". Sure, other people can have their narrow-minded views that anything without a blue-oval/bowtie/etc. are junk, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them--and in my doing-so, the flame fest began. *shrug*

It's funny though--it's usually the hardcore Domestic guys that I've met and spoken with who are really into the hands-on build-ups, are usually the ones who give much respect to the guys running quick times with the imports. And typically (notice I didn't say "all") the ones with less knowledge in performance areas that are so quick to put down anything that they don't own.

One of the most hardcore builders/racers that I've ever had the pleasure of speaking to (Mr. John Lingenfelter, RIP) was also the most enthusiastic about the import trend as well. If one didn't know who he was, you'd have thought he was just a regular hobbyist like the rest of us. But I suppose he was an idiot for appreciating well built race cars regardless of make as well.

DSSA,

Like you, nowhere in this discussion, or any other thread you will find on this forum, have I ever put down imports (except the one that I personally owned). I haven't even really put down the "ricers" We have been refering to. I think it is important to note here, that I believe that we (you and I) are talking about 2 totally different things. You are arguing that import enthusiasts shouldn't be grouped in with ricers (and yes I believe there is a difference). I agree with you, you shouldn't be grouped in with 'em. I am arguing that it isn't power under the hood that is attracting kids these days to these cars. It's the girls that're doin it....If you read my original post again in its entirety, I think you will see this. Also if you take a look at the following threads, I think you will see that much of what I posted here is simply a carry over from previous postings.

http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/t475-15&pagenumber=9
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/t62...-&pagenumber=3
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...ht=Firechicken

Now, as for this:

2) The "IQ statement" is something you need to read over again. One poster stated that their "Level of thinking was much higher than mine, because they tested in the "genius" range in an IQ test.". My rebuttal was that, I too tested high, but IQ tests typically don't mean much of anything in the real world. Even most psychologists don't put much weight in them. So in no way, shape, or form, was I "bragging about my intelligence" at any time in that reference--just simply putting that if you rate your intelligence via an IQ test, then your basis is pretty weak.

I understood it the first time, I was adding this for the benefit of others as well. That's one of the reasons I preceded the statement with disclaimer about not attacking or putting down.

And as for this:

3) The comment was "Could guys spend money on old muscle to fix it up and turn in lower ets for less money????" As you said. And your statement concerning it would have been 100% correct, *IF* it hadn't preceded the following quote: " Sure, then they'd be just like the rest of us "old timers". Which changes it from a question to a comment that you admittedly disagreed with in your post. (Which I agree with)

You lost me on this one. I'm not to sure exactly where it is I admittedly disagreed with my first comment in my post. I guess all I can say here is that the point I was initially trying to make (in my first post) was basically that kids have to be different than us old geezers in order to be cool. In my second posting I was simply saying that I never used the words ALL and WOULD in the statement and that COULD was the key word.

Anyway, I agree that you don't have to agree with anybody else here. I never said you needed to. Those who have come to their conclusions, have come to them for their own reasons. Just because they think imports are crap doesn't mean that they are narrow minded.

I can't judge them, as narrow minded simply because they disagree with me. Just like I can't lump you in the same basket as ricers just because I disagree with some of your automobile preferences.

BTW don't feel bad, I don't just dis-like the imports, I don't like Fords or Mopars either.

Cheers,
Firechicken