Thread: Tech question for tech re fed

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Were looking at the book and read the brakes general regs 3:1
what is ment by "if hand brake used it must be connected to foot brake.
are you supposed to have both?
am looking at a FED car which has a hand brake but no foot brake.

Originally Posted by canadianal

Were looking at the book and read the brakes general regs 3:1
what is ment by "if hand brake used it must be connected to foot brake.
are you supposed to have both?
am looking at a FED car which has a hand brake but no foot brake.

Back in the day, when dragsters first appeared on the scene, there were no good automatic transmissions, so you usually used a 3-speed standard (four, five and 6-speeds were far off in the future). You'd launch in second gear and shift to high downtrack. If you had enough hp, you'd run high only or just run direct from clutch to diff. With the skinny little cockpit, there was no room for 3 pedals, so you used a push or pull handbrake. Even if there had been room for 3 pedals, you'd have needed 3 legs to stage the car.

It has been a long time since I've seen a manual shift FED. Every one I've seen in the past few decades has used a 'glide, replacing the clutch pedal with a brake pedal and eliminating the handbrake. No more missed shifts and way more consistent. If the car has a manual, I think most any tech guy in your area will let the car run with only a handbrake if that's the way you want to do it. I'd let you make passes if everything else was up to snuff. It can get pretty dicey in those cars though, if you're having a problem and need two hands on the wheel to control it and also need brakes at the same time.

I have heard lately of sportsman dragsters using front brakes activated by a handbrake and operating the rear brakes conventionally with the footbrake. When you apply the rear brakes in the eyes, sometimes the car will begin to bounce on the rear tires and the brakes will be ineffective, with nothing to slow you down but the chute (hope you packed it correctly). With a tap on the front brakes via the handbrake, the car will immediately settle down and you'll have rear brakes again.

If I had a FED, I think I'd seriously consider the front brake option. The whole thing couldn't weigh more than about 20 lbs and with each 100 lbs slowing the car by 1/10th of a second, the increase in ET would be negligible. In today's bracket racing, you're running on a dial anyway, so it wouldn't matter much.

With an automatic, at 10.99 or 135 mph, you'll need a SFI 4.1 transmission shield or aftermarket tranny case that's certified as 4.1 from an aftermarket supplier. At 9.99, you'll need an SFI 29.1 aftermarket flexplate and SFI 30.1 flexplate shield. For the tranny shield, you have the option of a blanket which would fit better in a FED but will sometimes hang up the shift linkage if not installed properly and definitely hold heat in the tranny more than another rigid type of shield. The replacement time on a flexible blanket is 2 years, where a rigid shield is 5 years. Problem with the rigid aluminum or steel shields is that they don't fit tightly around the tranny and afford (in my opinion) less protection to the driver, particularly in a FED. Neither of these will address the problem of the flexplate shield. Again, the rigid flexplate shield takes up a lot of room, room you don't have in a FED. An aftermarket trans case will give you the most room, but is about $1,000 and still has a life of only 5 years before replacement. The other option is the one I would use. A composite shield that covers both the tranny and the flexplate and fits snugly around the case. You'll have to grind off the locating bosses that GM used to machine the case, but that's no big deal. It costs around $330 and has a 5 year life, so figure a cost of about $66 per year to use it.
CSR Performance 831 - CSR Super Shields - summitracing.com

The SFI 29.1 flexplate has a life of 3 years. Keep the receipt that came with it to show the tech inspector, because if will be next to impossible for him/her to see the tag on the 'plate. To be brutally honest with you, you probably won't be asked for it anywhere except Firebird.

By the way, use your dial caliper to measure the front spoke diameter if it has spoke wheels. Minimum diameter is 0.100" or they're junk. Also check for a chassis certification sticker. If no sticker, the car may not be worth anything except scrap metal. There are 3 SFI specs on FED's, depending on how quick they're gonna run.
Main

If it is certed, check the date and ET limit on the tag. The older tags did not show the ET limit, so you don't have any idea of what the car will cert to until you have a chassis certification inspector look at the car or you purchase the chassis specs from SFI and compare them to the car construction.

If no cert tag and you're still interested in the car, there are two ways to proceed.
1. Contact Jonathan Adams, NHRA Northwest Division Director email jadams@nhra.com or Dave Scheffel email dscheffel@nhra.com to have one of them come look at the car or trailer the car to one of them before you lay down your money.
2. Purchase the appropriate SFI specs for the ET you want to eventually run. Strip the car of all tinwork. Procure a sonic tester to test tubing wall thickness and a dial caliper to check tubing OD. Use a tape measure to measure between junction points. Compare the construction of the car to the SFI specs.

Pay attention to General Regs 2.4......if it were my car and my cajones were right over the pig, I'd be fashioning some 1/4" steel plate, welding pieces together to fabricate a form-fitting shield and prevent personal injury from a grenading diff.

In English please......
They don't call you techinspector for nothing!

Originally Posted by stovens

In English please......
They don't call you techinspector for nothing!

Steve, I'm what you might call a one-trick pony. I've only found one thing in life that I can do really well and that's to do technical inspection on drag race cars.
If there is anything in my post that you don't understand, I'd be more than pleased to explain it in detail so you can get a better understanding.

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Steve, I'm what you might call a one-trick pony. I've only found one thing in life that I can do really well and that's to do technical inspection on drag race cars.

Tech is being just a little bit humble here.
I know from experience that he is a pretty good swimmer and at one time was pretty good with a stripping brush.

Just a couple more areas I want to touch on.
General Regs 4.11, Open-bodied cars....
"When driver is in driving position in an open-bodied car, roll cage must be at least 3" in front of helmet"
In an "incident", belts are gonna stretch and your head can bobble forward, even with a neck collar on. I have to look at the worst possible scenario when I tech these cars and that is the car going over the wall upside-down with your face hanging out of the car as it comes over the corner of the wall. Not pretty.

Same paragraph:
"Cars without crossmember above driver's legs must have a strap or device to prevent legs from protruding outside chassis"
Same scenario. You're on a 160 mph pass when one of the slicks blows out. The car hooks to the wall and rolls several times, removing all the tinwork and leaving you with a bare chassis. The car launches over the wall upside down with your legs dangling outside the car as it goes over the corner of the wall. Again, not pretty.
You MUST contain your legs, knees and feet below the top frame rail. The most effective fix for this that I've seen is to weld tabs to the BOTTOM of the top frame rail and bolt nylon window net or nets to the tabs. SFI 27.1 window net like would be used in a doorslammer to keep the driver's left arm
in the car in the event of rollover. With you seated in the car in normal driving position and with tinwork removed, have one of your buddies lift up on your knees, legs and feet to see if they can come above the top frame rail. If yes, fix it. Mounting the net/nets to the bottom of the top frame rail will allow them to give a little without being torn off and still keep your feet/legs/knees below the top of the top frame rail
Race Car Safety Equipment, Window Net

The sentence that follows that has to do with "kidney bars". These bars are in place to prevent large flaps of tire from a blown slick from coming around and entering the driver's compartment and tearing up your back.

Just a little about arm restraints. These devices are designed to prevent the hands and arms from being flung outside the top frame rail where they could be....ummmm....detached from the body of the driver in the same upside-down, over the wall scenario. If you can't reach all the controls of the car when seated and ready to make a pass with the restraints mounted so that no part of your hands or arms can come above the top frame rail, then re-arrange the controls so that you can. I don't want to be addressing subsequent posts to "Lefty".

When I'm watching drag racing on TV and see a funny car do a burnout, the next thing I see is the hatch door come up so the car can air out some of the smoke. With the arm restraints in the proper place to prevent hands and arms from coming above the top frame rail, there is no way the driver could reach the hatch release mechanism. You just know they are mounted to his arms above the elbow. I can only hope he readjusts the restraints before launching on the pass.

Additional driver protection has been added to the 2008 Rulebook due to research of "incidents" and subsequent driver injuries or death. On page 270 under Top Fuel, driver compartment padding is addressed. We have had the SFI 45.1 padding on cage bars for years now, but the side padding is new. It reads: "Additional padding, mounted on flat stock and fastened to the roll cage on both sides of the driver's helmet, mandatory. Additional padding must be NHRA-accepted, securely mounted, using bolts or locking fasteners and must include flame-retardent covering."
This would be an excellent addition to any digger, funny, street roadster or altered with a funny cage, no matter the speed of the car.
ISP DRAG HEAD LATERAL HEAD SUPPORT-STANDARD - $235.00 : BSRProducts.com - Professional Racing Equipment

Another excellent safety device that is required in the Fuel ranks is the HANS device (Head And Neck Support). This device is attached to the driver and held in place by the shoulder belts. It attaches to the back of the helmet to prevent the head from extending forward. (the injury that killed Earnhardt in his NASCAR crash). Shoulder belt and lap belt attachment and geometry is critical when using this device to its full advantage. The HANS is not attached to the car in any way so that the driver can get out of the car quickly in event of fire.
Welcome

RJS and most likely other manufacturers offer a sternum strap that can be added to any shoulder belt set you order from them. It's quick-release and prevents the shoulder belts from spreading apart in an incident. This would be an excellent addition to your safety equipment if using a HANS device. It would keep the HANS in place.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...ce_1992_865643

Sorry for the long posts guys. Once I get going, it's hard to stop. I try to go into quite a lot of detail so that some of the fellows who are unfamiliar with the construction of drag race cars can get an idea of what is involved in keeping the driver in one piece.

Originally Posted by stovens

In English please......
They don't call you techinspector for nothing!

Just giving you a hard time. This topic was way over my head, but I'm impressed with your knowledge base!

Originally Posted by stovens

Just giving you a hard time. This topic was way over my head, but I'm impressed with your knowledge base!

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your comment. It's a labor of love.

heck tech i just wanted to keep it simple and know about hand brake or foot brake. Thanks for all the info

Hey Richard, while you are still on the line..........I had an Austin Bantam roadster that ran B/Altered back in the '70's. The rear was solidly mounted, no suspension at all. Is that still legal in the Altered classes for a bracket car?

I know coilovers and a four bar are better, but I have an idea for something rolling around in my head. Also, how about rear only brakes on that car?

Don

Don,

Suspension optional 2,350# or less with 100" or longer wheelbase. If overweight or underlength, front suspension required. Solid mount rear ok.

Good to 6.00 ET with rear wheel brakes only, in open-bodied car. Bodied cars require 4-wheel brakes at 7.49

10.00 and slower- SFI 3.2A/1 jacket, SFI 3.3/1 gloves, arm restraints, Snell full-face M2000, M2005, K98, K2005, SA2000, SA2005 helmet with helmet shield or helmet with goggles. Can also use SFI 41.2A or 31.2A helmet. If auto trans in driver's compartment with no floor over it, 3-2A/15 jacket and pants, SFI 3.3/5 gloves and SFI 3.2A/5 boots or shoes. SFI 4.1 auto trans shield, SFI 18.1 harmonic damper, aftermarket axles required at 10.99. Neck collar required at 135 mph, no matter the ET.

9.99-6.00 SFI 3.2A/5 jacket and pants, SFI 3.3/1 gloves, arm restraints, Snell SA2000, SA2005 or SFI 31.2A full-face helmet with shield mandatory. Goggles prohibited. 7.50 or 6.00 chassis cert tag. Competition driver's license. SFI 29.1 flexplate if auto and SFI 30.1 flexplate shield. Neck collar or HANS. If wearing HANS with no collar, must wear separate SFI 3.3 Nomex head sock or use skirted helmet with sock built in. Helmet skirt must display SFI 3.3 tag.
(neck collar serves two purposes, keeps the head steady and prevents fire from coming up in the helmet. That's the reason for the head sock if no collar). You can, of course, wear the HANS and the collar without the sock, but it gets a little bulky.

I'm just skimming over the top. If you want the whole skinny, get a NHRA 2008 Rulebook and call me on my cell. Will leave the # on PM.

Scroll up to post #2 and click on "main" to see altered specs for sale from SFI.

Originally Posted by canadianal

heck tech i just wanted to keep it simple and know about hand brake or foot brake. Thanks for all the info

Sorry Al, it's hard for me to keep it simple when talking tech.

Cool, so I can build another Bantam altered just like the one I had. Mine only ran low tens with a 301 Chevy, but this time I'm going to use my 460 Ford, so 9's should be attainable.

As soon as I get a few things out of the way I'm going to start on the frame and suspension (front).........think I'll call this one "Project Low 9's" .

Richard, as always your info is greatly appreciated. (didn't mean to hijack, but it looked like canadianal had his answer already )

Don

Originally Posted by canadianal

heck tech i just wanted to keep it simple and know about hand brake or foot brake. Thanks for all the info

I like to have both!!!! When things go wrong as they occasionally do, nice to have an option to find the whoa control!!!! I much preferred launching off the handbrake, too!!! Not sure why, just something for the other hand to do I guess!!!!! Usually stopped with the foot brake, used the right hand for the chute, then as a backup on the brake, especially on the short shut down tracks!!!!!!

PS--Blowing a valve cover gasket on a FED can REALLY make for a wild ride!!!! Make sure you use good covers and gaskets!!!!!

"PS--Blowing a valve cover gasket on a FED can REALLY make for a wild ride!!!! Make sure you use good covers and gaskets!!!!!"

Dave, I'm glad you brought this up. Alcohol and Fuel ranks have this covered by requiring vent hoses attached to each valve cover and leading to the rear of the car to dump into a sump tank. They use 1 1/4" ID hose, but you wouldn't need anything that large for a production motor. The way they do it is run from the valve cover to the top frame rail at the side/rear of the motor and use the frame rail as a carrier to the rear of the car, where a hose takes off from the frame rail in the rear to the 2-gallon catch tank.

I might be thinkin' along the lines of 5/8ths or 3/4 inch hose for a production motor. I'd use a cast aluminum cover with a rubber gasket. You could cut a hole in the top of each cover and heliarc an elbow in that would take a hose. Even if you couldn't make provision to use the top frame rails, running two hoses to the rear wouldn't be any big deal. A 2, 3 or 4 qt. can with internal baffling could be mounted at the rear of the car. Entry tubes on the bottom of the can and vent tubes to atmosphere at the top of the can. That would alleviate the crankcase pressure that extrudes the gasket in the first place and make a safer car. Personally, I think it should be required on any open-bodied, front motor car.