Thread: nitrous oxide

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here is the skinny from someone who has successfully used spray since 1977, in fact been building dedicated sprays systems for myself and others since 1980.
1) only use a fogger and or a dry system on a RACE ONLY CAR, they r far too temporamental and hard to dial in to b used on a street driven application.
2) the horror stories u hear and see about spray use are the same ones used to b so common with blower and or turbo charger use, and for the same reasons, inept use and or substandard parts.
3) if u plan to use more than 50bhp of spray, especially on an otherwise stock engine, its a good bet to invest in an automatic retard system since the general rule of thumb is that u employ 2 degrees of retard for every 100bhp used, thus u need at least 1 degree by the time u get to 50bhp
4) jus as foggers and dry units are best left to pro race drivers and crews, so to are progressive controller systems, for predominantly street use with a closed exhaust, best u stick with a wet plate. progressive engagers play havoc on solenoids, and even if u have a fuel pressure safty shut off u can still fry an engine right quick if ur fuel solenoid fails and the nitrous one still operates. wet sytems employ what is known as a fuel enrichment side, IE: they introduce additional fuel supply when the Nitrous is activated, dry systems do not.
5) if ur a novice, as in new user, don't listen to ANYONE other than the supplier of ur nitrous system and follow their instructions and recommendations to the letter. If u do, u'll enjoy many passes with blissful spay use, n the 1st time u make a full clean pass with spray, ur gonna b hooked so get ready.

something else aboiut spray(Nitrous Oxide) use...
1) if u use a staged system use one that addes additional spray with each stage, rather than flips over from one to another, even with the best auto retards u can STILL catch ur ignition in transistion from one retard set to the other and end up having a big bang and fireball jus as if u leaned out or lost adequate fuel supply, IE: if u want a total of 250bhp use maybe 50 to 100 for the 1st stage then add the remainder in ur 2cnd stage w/ seperate auto retards on both.
2) any internal combustion engine has what is known as a TEP or thermal efficiency potential controled by its physical size and the ambient atmospheric pressure it operates in, and THIS dictates how much power u can produce from said engine, the only way to exceed this is to increase the size of the engine and or the atmospheric pressure in the inlet such as turbo or supercharging, spray will NOT do this, it is a declining pressure application, IE: if ur engine has a TEP of say 700bhp and u make 600 of that on the mtr alone, u can spray all the spray u want n u'll only get another 100 bhp... its essentually a clean up to give u on demand what ya left in the mtr during ur build....
3) there is really no such thing as a nitrous cam grind, any came with low lobe center and sep numbers, and or moderate duration is goin to work well with spray since they bleed off LESS cyl pressure by way of shortening the amount of time in which BOTH valves are off their seats, known as OVERLAP. this is what ya want with spray since its a declining pressure application that does not increase atmospheric inlet pressure, in short u want as much of ur spray to stay IN the cyl once u get it in there as possible, cams with long duration and or or wide lobe seps n centers are not conducive to this.
Remember, tho rated in BHP what spray actually increases is TQ, IE: if ur sprayin 250bhp, no matter what rpm u engage ur system at, u get the whole of that 250, even if u engage it at idle, (which is a very dangerous thing to do, nitrous should b installed so as to b engage at nearly if not AT WOT!!!!!)
finally, to insure good and instant engagement of ur system USE A PURGE SYTEM installed as close to the nitrous solenoid or noids as possible.

also, with spray use, research is great but actual experience is MUCH better.
for the guy showing the bent rods n such from the 351, u used TOO much at TOO low an RPM and or u did not have a recip assembly that would tolerate the power level u achieved when u engaged ur spray, u may have even also leaned the system out....
for the guy using 4 degrees of retard per 100bhp, waaaaaaayyyyyyy too much, ur actually decreasein the effectiveness of ur spray by a great deal....
another thing, the closer u place the solenhoids to the plate or fogger nozzles the quicker n harder the system hits, even W/ a purge.
u can tailor ur hit also by manipulations in fuel pressure and timing....
For instant, u can increase ur effectiveness by lowering the amount of retard and or ur fuel pressure.
Also, the lower ur mechanical compression ratio, the more effective spray is, hgh compression engages usually involve large amounts of cam duration and wide lobe center n lobe sep numbers thus OVERLAPP and bleeding off of cyl pressure, fine for straight engine and or boost, but NOT for spray... also a short overlap cam in a hgh compression engine is gonna make for some exhorbitant static cyl pressures in operation at normal operating tempsget the thing warm n u may need 25 degrees of retard added to get the starter to turn the thing over, even a mini tq.
when planing to use spray, pick a cam off the shelf or have cut a specific grind and install it STRAIGHT UP, do NOT RETARD OR ADVANCE SAME in installation, ur jus askin for problems if u do.
as i said earlier, i been spraying since 77, when ALL spray systems were foggers call direct port and took as much as 3 or 4 days to properly install, and who knows how many passes to dial in correctly, let no one tell u can baseline a spray system without makin some flogging passes, u can't, not even if u use the baseline or set u used on another engine exactly like the one ur going to use, ur still gonna have to make some floggin passes to properly dial the system in.

BTW, i have found that whether u BUILD and tailor ur own systems, or simply buy and install a prefab kit, stick with NOS, Nitrous Oxide Systems for the actual system, of the original suppliers of spray systems for cars, they r the only ones left, all the rest such as laser n the like have faded from existance, and all the new ones are jus copies based on the NOS systems, no matter WHAT they claim to the contrary, in most cases their parts are actually produced for them by NOS. for ignition systems i recommend MSD exclusively, the founders of same got their start at Jacobs electronics back when same was building Ford's duraspark electronic ignition systems, which is why MSD, Jacobs electronics and Ford Duraspark control boxes look so much alike. AND don't b afraid to use the MSD 7al2 or 3 systems on the streeti have the former on my TA and the latter on my BMW, neither of which is over 10-1 comp or above .600 lift, in fact the TA is 8-1 with a .587 x .593 solid on 105 lobe center n sep, while the Bmer is Hydraulic same lobe sep n center but only .523 x .544 n that only because i use 1.65 roller rockers vs the 1.55 stockers that v8 Buicks come with, n yes, my Bmer has a 464 cube Stage 1 455 based engine with 2 stage Dominator wet plate spray system and a 1050 dom atop same.
there is NO mistake or mis calculation with spray that i did not make with spray in the 3 years before i started buildin my own systems, matter of fact, i began to build my own systems so that i could make em "dummy proof"

when buildin a spray dedicated engine, build a short block capable of toleratin the amount of power u expect to make when u engage the spray, IE: if u have a recip n short block assembly that will tolerate say 500bhp, u make that and then add even as much as 100bhp of spray, ur likely to need some oil dry n a straw basket in short order, especially if ur engagein at low rpm's, jus as u wouldn't use such a short block/ recip assembly in an engine with which u planned to make 700 bhp on the mtr, u shouldn't use it in one that will make more than 500 total bhp when u spray.
essentually the greatest application and benifit of spray is that u can build and exceedingly mild engine and spray out whatever u leave in the engine tween that and the most it could possibly make normally aspirated, such as would b what u want to have a street ride with fair to good MPG and great engine life as well as drivability.
Also, fuel requirements as far as octane level required do not change unless u increase the mechanical compression ratio and or the static cyl pressure during the compression stroke. the lower ur mechanical compression ratio the less octane u can use and still get optimum performance, with a low compression engine usein too hgh octane fuel actually robs power since the burn rate is far to slow, u'de have to advance ur timing into the stratosphere in order to produce the same amount of power as u would with lower octane fuel.
Most folk get the wrong idea about what ur doin when u advance or retard ur timing, when u advance ur timein ur actually lighting ur fire sooner in ur stroke which is why its expressed in degrees before top dead center, when u retard ur timing ur actually lightin the fire later in ur stroke or closer to top dead center. HGH octane fuels are dirtier( and before u ask why premium fuels cost more than do low octane fuels? precisely because they r dirtier n thus engender far greater tax burdens which the petro supplier passes on to YOU the consumer) and thus have slower burn rates, too slow to make effective power with retarded timin settings, since they take longer to burn they require that ya light em off sooner in relation to top dead center, lower octane fuels burn quicker thus u need to wait later to light them off, otherwise u lean out, as in ur left with MORE oxgen in the combustion cyl than u have accellerant to heat evenly and ya get hot points in the cyl which light off ur mixture before AND after the spark plug does, thus u have opposing flame fronts crashing together, resultin in that anoying rattlein sound of detonation, aka pre ignition. the reason it sounds as if its rattleing is because it is, ur actually rattlein the pistons n rods in the cyl. This is why diesel engines have such large heavy duty parts, so as to withstand this rattleing which results from lighting flame frontSSSS with other than a spark plug, they simply compress the mixture so much that it crates enuff heat to self ignite almost AT bottom dead center or just off of same and requires the dirtier diesel fuel in order to burn slow enuff NOT to lean out by TDC.
another area that is often in confusion is that the engine burns gas to make power, which is true and NOT true, what burnin the fuel does is expand the oxygen in ur mixture violently, IE: make it explode in a contained environment, the violent expansion of the oxygen in ur mixture is what drives ur pistons, not the burnin of the gas, which is why at peak thermal efficiency levels the engine exhausts everything originally in ur mixture EXCEPT the oxygen, this is why ox sensors r used in FI systems, if there is too much ox content in the exhaust that means the engine is lean, too little means it is too rich.
when buildin a hgh performance engine for any competetive mtr sport the guy who builds the strongest engine is the one who not only knows what works, where it works when and how it works, but also WHY it works... after all if u do not understand or know WHY something works, how can u hope to effectively make it work better ???
I began drag racin in my own rides that i wrenched at age 13 in the summer of 1963 and i have hot roded every domestic brand at one time or another since then, predominantly Buick, Olds and Pontiac witha great deal of Mopar experience as well as some mild forays with both Ford and AMC products. I find that in order to win more than u loose in drag racin, which is the best u can do in ANY racing( the only one who doesn't loose is the one who doesn't race, and their is a vast diff tween winning n racing, they r not always mutually inclusive and few racers want em to b....most want to win, but they don't want it to b a race thus they only wanna race some1 over whom they feel they have some insurmountable advantage and that is true even among the so called pro racers...) u need to know nearly as much about the potential of the brand u compete against as u do about those u compete WITH.
another thing, street racing is illegal and with good reason tho not the one most folk think, it isn't cause its any safer for the participants, only that it is safer for the spectators and even THAT hasn't always been so race tracks, witness Dale Earnhart, dead as hell in like as not the safest race car that could b built at one of the safest race tracks in the world. Racin anywhere any time entails the exact same amount of risk for the participants and their vehicles, the diff is u pay the track to insure that u take every precaustion to LIMIT same and eliminate same as much as possible for the spectators. Precautions u must need take and responsibility u must need assume for urself on the street, if ur unwilling or unable or unaware of how to do that, by all means, confine ur racing to the track cause if i see ya racin on the street, ima put the cops on ya and quick ain't fast enuff to describe how fast. so called PRO racers who RAIL against street racing r usually those who r SCARED to race, not the street racer, i have been to any number of tracks in my life and raced, i have yet to race at one it takes half as much nerve to race at as does the safest street spot i have yet to race at. Besides, it takes a lot more nerve to line up with someone whom u don't KNOW how quick they r or YOU are for that matter than at the track when u can sit back n let the clocks tell ya how quick ya both r, as well as insure that both HE or SHE AND you take the nessecarty precautions for safty sake, all things u have to figure for urself on the street.
Next, Drag racing started and yet has its roots ON THE STREET and if u were to somehow eliminate all street drag racing, its a lock that within a year there would b NO DRAG strip still open, or any after market supplier of drag race parts doin very well either. Think about it, sponsors AND track owners and officials make money off the street enthusiasts, not the pro's, them they spend money on, not make money on they are considered ADVERTISEMENT to sell their brand to folk who for the most part don't even GO to a drag strip, let alone race at one or on the street for that matter. GM and Mopar both build relatively light production rides that make over 600 BHP, do u actually believe they expect the buyer is only goin to use same only at a track, do u think insurers would get away with charger the kinds of premiums they do on such cars if the owners were expected to only use same on tyhe track, NO, in fact if u wreck ur ride on a race track u r NOT COVERED. and all that about safty for the patrticipants ?? once it gets past what YOU can take care of with a 1st aid kit. the track is only safer if its NEXT DOOR to a big hospital with a well equiped trauma center, how many races tracks ya know that are ???

well hi MrWizard455 old post but your laying down some new info for some one to read .i see your in to the Nos and from flint mi. i think the old ladys run Nos in that town going to church

BTW, there r street racers, and what street racers call street squirrels or street stupid, the former is goin to b the one that u have seldom if even seen so much as hit their car, let alone race, the one under whose hood u have NEVER SEEN, the one who is a whole lot quicker and faster than they look or sound rather than Vice Versa, the one who plays dumb rather than as if they know all about their OWN ride, let alone urs.
The ones u see out with their hood up or off showcasin n broadcasting the latest trick of the week part or build, callin for exhorbitant amounts to bet to race, the ones u see racin thru a half crocked crowd of spectators, and or down residential streets, light to light, burnin out from every stop, that is a street squirell like the clowns in the fast n furious n biker boys movies which is where most of these young clowns copy the crap from, especially the "importers" who really never actually wanna drag race, they wanna go " from a roll", AND they wanna run for free if they run each other let alone a domestic V8. Unfortunately, all Horsepower is NOT created equally, IE given all else equal, a 300bhp V8 is gonna beat the snot outta a 300bhp 4cyl or even v6 every trip of the train unless he breaks or screws up his pass in some way... why ? cause the 300bhp V8 is gonna make MORE tq at a much lower rpm than is the 4cyl or V6 and the more tq u make at lower rpm the fewer rpm u need turn to make any given amount of bhp, there is actually no such thing as horsepower, same is simply a mathematical expression of tq multiplied by the specified rpm diff tween the TQ peak rpm and the BHP peak rpm. remember, drag racin is more about quick than fast, if u make a 10 flat pas n i make a 10.50 pass it ain't gonna matter if im goin 100 mph faster than u when i get to the traps, u still got there a half sec quickler than i did and u win. Therefore its a misnomer to build for BHP essentually in a drag car, rather build for maximum tq at the least amount of rpm across the widest powerband within ur usable RPM range as u can, the only problem with that is that BHP which usually comes at relatively hgh rpm's when the vehicle is ALREADY in motion is a whole lot easier to hook than is TQ at low rpm when the vehicle is tryin to get up from rest, objects in motion tend to want to stay in motion and accellerate while conversely object at rest tend not to want to move from same, the heavier it is the less its willin to move from rest, once u make the tq to overcome that, u now need the traction to take advantage of same, whether brute tq or gross bhp, that which u can not put TO THE GROUND is counterfiet, no use, u can put 1000 bhp to the rear tires or front if ur FWD even divide it = tween frnt n rear with AWD or 4wheel drive etc, if u only have traction yeild to put 700 or 800 to the ground that is what will determine how quick ur gonna go or accelerate from rest, many feel if they can't fry the tires they are strong or fast, while the truth is that zero wheerlspin is to b sought after, not overcome, and with an automatic u need to flash ur verter from as low an rpm as u can get away with w/o boggin the car unless u have a trans brake, yet another item best left at the track on pro race cars, they r not especiaslly user friendly on the street and no matter how strong a trans ya got a brake is gonna vastly shorten its life, same as hgh power hgh rpm lauches with a stick shortens the clutch life...AND before someone makes the claim, NO auto, even WITH a trans brake is ultimately as quick all else equal as is a stick shift, however, since it is less driver intense in use than is a stick its almost always more consistant. Besides there is a vast diff tween bein able to drive a stick shift and proficiently drag race one, trus me, its no very much about how fast u can move the shifter as one might expect, lot more to it than that, especially to achieve any kind of consistancy.
All this to explain why one would b better to STAGE hgh amounts of spray application to avoid traction and or driveline breakage issues on the launch. what good is it to spray 100 or 200 bhp of spray if it jus blows the tires away or breaks the driveline somehow ???
exactly, none....
this also explains why MOST racers prefer an auto vs a manual, they r easy to operate and require less driver input to do so proficiently thus they r more consistant, and since they have WET clutches which do not make for the adhesion of a dry clutch, they all less likely to blow the tires away or break the driveline in hgh hp applications. in fact by the time u get to 4k rpm stall speed ur well down into the 80 per centile lockup efficiency range and it only gets worse as stall speed goes up from there, where as a good dry clutch set up can achieve as much as 99.9 per cent lock up efficiency, IE a 1 engine rev amounts to may as well say 1 driveshaft rev, while with an auto with a hgh stall verter 1 engine rev may equal .8 or less driveshaft rev. also with a stick u have effectively an any size stall converter w/o the attendant loss of lock up efficiency, in short u can take 2 equal cars with equal prowess drivers, one auto, the other stick, the stick mtr can and sometime will; go quicker than the auto, even when it doesn't have quite as much power because of this, especially if the auto has a less than optimum stall speed for its engine combo.

i would almost HAVE to agree with ya Pat, this is a juice junkie town no doubt, here u either have it or ya need it, no matter what else u may or may not have

for example, i have 1 hot rod, my sivberado with a single stage system, and 3, my TA, My Bmer and my Lesabre( a 4 dr 1978 w/ a 403 Olds that it CAME with) all of which have dual stage systems....and MSD auto retard ignition systems all, 7al2 on the TA, 7al 3 on the Bmer, digital 6 on the silverado and the lesabre
I treat it like American Express, never leave home without it in either case.

BTW Pat if ur the guy with the blown black bad azz 66 goat i sawe at this years annual Flint back to the bricks or last years, u have seen both my lesabre, my bike, my siverado as well as my TA, tho i doubt u may have taken note of either....

BTW Pat, as u may have guessed, i think ur Goat is jus awsome, simply bad azz, wekll thought out and well done if ya don't mind my sayin

LOVE the Irish diplomacy as well, gotta teach me that one for sure.....

Originally Posted by MrWizard455

BTW Pat if ur the guy with the blown black bad azz 66 goat i sawe at this years annual Flint back to the bricks or last years, u have seen both my lesabre, my bike, my siverado as well as my TA, tho i doubt u may have taken note of either....

that was my car i built it and painted it .i sold it to some guys from flint it came back to my shop to fit the headers for the short deck blower engine .it was in racing junk up for sale some time ago . i sold the car on 911 with out the engine .i do not know who owns it now last time i seen it look like the way it was sold they did a re cage it .i have done work for some flint guys and sold parts to some of them .i did go on the flint zone but it abit to tuff for me

Well guys, I started this about a year ago, and must say I know more about
nitrous now than I did then..Thanks to every one for the info, and especially
Mr Wizzard. Since I posted this I blew the BB up in May 09 and was not using
nitrous, just my fault...
Pat do you think I need nitrous now, or should even think about it, or remove
the plumbing all together? R dobbs

Originally Posted by rdobbs

Well guys, I started this about a year ago, and must say I know more about
nitrous now than I did then..Thanks to every one for the info, and especially
Mr Wizzard. Since I posted this I blew the BB up in May 09 and was not using
nitrous, just my fault...
Pat do you think I need nitrous now, or should even think about it, or remove
the plumbing all together? R dobbs

well you could spray some down there if you can find a spot in what ever gear it s not pulling the wheels off the ground