Thread: nitrous oxide

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absolutely correct in every instance Lou..... this is the area where most folk fall short in their build, especially when using a power adder. they build an engine that can contain what power is made if it were normally aspirated but not with the additional power from the power adder. The same way folk will build an engine and trans thats bullet proof for the most part but fail to add the needed periphial equipment to take best advantage of them in use. maybe they may fall short in the area of traction yield, or perhaps they short cut on chasis rigidity( which affects traction yield), maybe their instant center and or pinion angle is slightly off, wwhich not only reduced traction yield but also reduces the effect of weight transfer as well as wastes power, viscous coupleings(u-joints) take much more power to turn when there is misalignment, this is why vehicles drag raced with independent drive wheel suspension system are so prone to breakage. with the number of viscous coupleings in such a system its near impossible to have all of them properly aligned at all times, especially on the launch when u have max lift n weight transfer. Not to say that u can't overcome these shortfalls, just that its quite a bit more expensive to do and still ur left with a system that is less durable than a fixed or hypoid axle system, not to mention one that is more power parasitic.
However ur absolutely correct in ur assesment that whether u plan to produce all ur power normally aspirated or with some sort of power adder the whole vehicle must b designed and executed to handle and make best use of whatever TOTAL amount of power u might achieve, since power u can't put on the ground is essentually counterfeit, in fact ur better off if u have LESS power than ur able to plant than if u have MORE. wheelspin, wheel stands, tire smoke n all that is great for the spectators but not very conducive to winning races. Remember SPOT is a dogs name and ketchup is for hot dogs n french fries, if someone gets out on ya on the lauch u jus spotted that racer and ur playin catch-up. I'll b the 1st to admit that in a race where for whatever reason u end up behind and u over come this to win is a GREAT feeling, but given my druthers, let ME b out there n THEY back there tryin to catch ME. It often said as a truism that the race is won at the start line, this isn't so, its won at the finish line u can jus give urself a better chance to win at the start line, and ur far less likely to make an error if ur in front than if ur behind.
Again do not take my favortism for spray as to mean that i don't reconize its short falls, i do...nor should u expect that i believe that spray is the overall best piower adder, IT ISN'T, Turbo chargeing is. with a turbo u can make MORE POWER and maintain a greater degree of durability than with any other power production method, even normally aspirated with NO power adder, this because the turbo loads BOTH sides of the combustion or power stroke, the restriction caused by drivin the turbo off the exhaust loads that side of the power stroke, while the turbo boost loads the intake side, this has a balanceing effect on the engine and tends to have the engine run more in the center of ur clearances thus relievein a good deal of the stress on bearings and recip assembly parts, includin side loadin of the pistons against ur cylinder wall, which also reduces friction. tho this does not nessecarily MAKE more power, it does leave u more of what ya do make to put to the wheels.
My preference for spray is based on the fact that 1st i feel like a turbo or a supercharger is CHEATING, AND both are much more expensive as well as tech intense to install, and maintain. The end game is no matter what u do, no matter what route ya use, the more power u produce from any given power train the shorter the life of same is goin to b, again the generally accepted breakwater mark is 1bhp per cube, past that engine life goes down expostentially, by the time u have gotten to 1.25bhp per cube ur engine life is about 70 per cent of what it was at 1bhp per cube, by the time u get to 2bhp per cube its less than half what it was at 1bhp per cube, which brings up my last point in my preference for spray, max power is on demand only, the remainder of the time the wear factor is that of what the engine makes on mtr alone. spray is also yet NORMALLY ASPIRATED since it DOES NOT increase inlet pressure, its NOT as brutal on the engine as is a supercharger, but more so than is a turbo charger when in use. In final, everything is NOT for everybody, because spray works best for MY purposes does not mean it will for urs. My aim is mainly STEALTH, walk softly and carry a big stick, b faster and quicker than u look or sound, rather than vice versa, u must admit, its kinda hard to b stealthy with a blower stuck thru ur hood or that tell tale turbo whine as ya pull up. another thing, IF u use spray, treat it the same way as does those folk who use a supercharger or a turbo charger, like AMERICAN EXPRESS, never leave home without it and ALWAYS have a spare full bottle on hand. Remeber most so called racers really don't want to race, they jus wanna win and do so as easily as possible. Drag racin successfully is NOT a show and tell sport, after all, if u accept bthat the other racers are at least as wise as u r, as u must, and u show and tell all u have, those who can't or do not believe they can beat ya aren't gonna mess with ya till they think they can and the ones who can are not gonna give ya any kind of break, best u keep ur hood and ur mouth closed, thats ur best chance of winnin more than ya loose which is the very best u can hope for in any kind of racing, the only folk who never loose r those who do not really race.

im not at all offended Lou. I may have more experience or expertise than u at this but it does not mean i can't learn something from u, nor does it mean that my way is best for u. to b offended because ur opinion differs from mine would b kinda self centered and arrogant n thats not my M O. However, i do all my switch flippin and valve tyurnin long before i ever line up to race, and i build my OWN systems, and despite my vast experience and expertise with spray i build them DUMMY PROOF with the best available parts and ALL the nessecary periphial equipment to take full advantage of the system. as a rule i run a 2 stage system, tho i have had and built for other folk systems with as many as 4 stages. I put my 1st or start stage on a throttle switych and set it to engage at WOT, my 2cnd stage is ALWAYS and ADD on rathert than a flip over and i engage that with a hand held AFTER the launch or when the chasis settles, whichever comes 1st, and thats usually on the 2cnd gear shift or jus before same. My preference for spray again is because 1) its only on demand and i can build a relatively MILD engine that is pmp gas friendly with great drivability n fair MPG( mechanical comp ratio n cyl pressure determine ur octane rating needed,if u have an 87 octane compatible engine u can spray the hell out it to the max n still never need to go more than one grade hgher fuel octane rate, in this case it would b to 89 octane). that in parenthesis brings to mind yert another myth that causes some racers to not gain as much power as they could have....too much octane is JUST AS BAD for performance as is too little its jus that ur more likely to incur damage with too little octane. Here is what u must consider, the hgher the octane of the fuel the slower the burn rate because its a dirtier fuel, don't b mislead by the fact that hgher octanes cost more than lower octanes, this is because hgher octane fuels being dirtier incur a greater tax burden which the supplier then passes on to the consumer resulting in the hgher price even tho the lower octane fuels are more expensive to produce, the lower the octane the cleaner the fuel burns, mainly because it burns faster thus burns more completely in the same amount of space n time. with a low octane fuel u can start the fire of combustion a lot later or closer to the pistons TDC, whereas with a slower burn rate u MUST light it closer to BDC in order to insure that it burns completely by the time the combustion cycle is over. Much of the confusion comes with the terms advance and retard timing, when u ADVANCE ur timin ur actually firin the spark plug sooner in the combustion cycle and later when u retard the timin...IE if ur total timin is say 40* that says ur lightin the plug 40* of crankshaft rotation BTDC, ONLY a grunt or TQ monster with relatively low octane fuel is goin to benifit from a timin set that is near or ATDC

PS, i have as i have said a total of 5 hot rods that i drag race, includin a ZX11D Kawasaki Ninja, they are all what we call BUILT, including the bike, to variing degrees and all r yet PMP gas,
My Lesabre: 403 8-1 SBO, i run 87 octane in colder weather and 89 when the ambient gets above 65* I run a 2 stage system 50bhp 1st stage and an add on 100bhp 2cnd stage
My Silverado: 406 10-1 0 deck( 0 deck means that at TDC the dome of the piston is dead even with the block deck, in my case since my block was decked .005 mine r .005 above the block deck at TDC) this is a very tricky combo to run, especially on pmp gas since static cyl pressure is much hgher than the mechanical compression ratio would imply, so that it is still pmp gas friendly i run a cam with relatively a lot of overlap, especially for something on spray to bleed off some of this cyl pressure and use a single stage system with a 175bhp set that actually yeilds jus a tad over 140bhp due to the bleed off. as with the lesabre, my octane level depends on ambient temps, 93-94 in warm weather and 90-92 in damp and or cooler weather.
My Trans Am: std bore 455 H.O. Pontiac 9-1 also like the lesabre a 2 stage system 100 1st stage w/ an add on 150 2cnd stage for a total of 250 and i use the same octane rates with this as with the Silverado under the same circumstances.
My BMW: .038 over 70 Stage 1 455 Buick( the engine is actually since the build, more stage 2 than stage 1 but it IS based from a Stage 1) 10-1(actually 10.13-1) like the Silverado n Trans Am i use the same fuel octane ratings under the same circumstance tho max timin for the TA is 36*, 34* for the Silverado(Which is on the ragged edge of whats permissable with a capped exhaust with the 0 deck 406 SBC n 6" rods on pmp gas in really hot weather im limited to a total of 32*) while the Bmer i run a Total of as much as 30* in hot weather but no more than 32* in cool and or damp weather.
i run a 125 1st stage with a 175 add on 2cnd stage for a total of 300 in spray.
My Ninja is kitted with a Super Bike Mike 1109 CC Kit but NO SPRAY and i ALWAYS run 93 or 94 in that since its 12-1( i can get away with this since its an all aluminum liquid cooled engine which has a diff heat dissipation rate than any of the other vehicles which are ALL IRON engines.
Both the Ninja and the Bmer are hgh 9 sec rides on a good clean pass, 9.9 for the Ninja, 9.7 for the Bmer. The Silverado and the Lesabre are both mid to low 12 sec rides while the TA has clicked off some mid 10's since the addition of the tremec tko 600 5 spd manual, all times are thru the exhaust, full exhaust including tail pipes, 2.5" on the bike n 3" on all the rest with Flowmaster 40 series 2 chamber muffs.
All, including the bike do and MUST run trouble free at or above the posted speed limit anywhere so long as the fuel lasts without incident of problems as well as operate trouble free overheating free no matter what the traffic situation im in.
Both the lesabre and the Silverado use TH350 Trans, 2600 veter in the Silverado n 3500 in the lesabre, the Bmer also uses a 3500 verter but w/ a Coan TH400 race w/o brake n 2.38 1st gearthe TH350's are yet auto shift while the Bmer is manual reverse pattern. the TA and Lesabre both use a 3.08 gear while the Bmer uses a 3.50 geared Ford 9'' n the Silverado a 3.42.
TA runs 28 x 11.5 x 15 MT ET Streets, Bmer 26 x 10.5 x 15 MT ET Streets, Silverado n Lesabre both use 275 x 60r x 15 BFG TA Radials. The Bike is stock gearing and ride height but uses a 190mm rear tire as opposed to the stock 180mm. BTW the Lesabre is a 78 4dr sedan n SBO stands for Small Block Oldsmobile V8 which is what it came with(403), AND ITS LOADED SAVE FOR REAR DEFROST N POWER WINDOWS.
The Bmer is also loaded, the only deletions in the build were IRS, ABS n EFI, tho i plan next year to delete the power brakes so that i can run a more agressive and solid lifter cam, but for the TA all engines are currently flat tappet hydraulic( roller cams, especially really aggressive roller cams are far too short lived valvetrain systems for the amount of driving i do with my rides) especially since i have a number of them.
None of my rides are world beaters but ALL r quicker and faster than they look or sound and all are TRUE STREET(pmp gas full exhaust including tail pipes)
as opposed to race gas short exhaust REAL STREETERS, they are all also ALL METAL save for the TA's shaker and the the Bmer's 4'' cowl hood scoop, and but for the Bmer all retain stock suspensions w/o any visible traction devices, and the Bmer, but for redrilled hubs n rotors for 5 on 4.5 bolt circle, is ALL STOCK front suspension

BTW Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all and their families in the hope that we all have a great year of car craftin in the coming year, and lets all try to stick together more, it isn't as if car crafters have a whole lot of friends outside the field, thus if WE don't stick with and support each other, who will ? Right.....nobody

O, lou, ur right, someone is gonna wax ya if ya keep racin enuff, actually RACING and it won't matter WHAT u have or what yu do to it, thats jus the nature of the beast of racing....
i don't claim to always win, and anyone who does is a liar, u won't always beat the folks ur supposed to beat let alone all those u think u will and i don't mean to imply that spray can overcome that fact....besides, no matter how much spray ya use, ur only goin to achieve at best the max T E P of whatever size engine u have, someone gets in the next lane with as much or more mtr than u and or a supercharger or turbo charger and ur likely to loose regardless of how much spray ya use, the best workin combo in any race ALWAYS win and that combo's most important ingrediants are the operator and the chief wrench.
Best that ya either stick with what ya know or learn all ya can about what ur gonna use.
as i say, i like spray because i can build an engine which is mild and on mtr alone puts out something less than the max T E P then spray out the rest on demand.
My Bmer for instance, the engine i use has a T E P that CAN make for 12-1400 BHP, however, my engines present state isn't goin to contain more than 930 for more than a short while if i hook it solid, the reason is thatv a 930bhp Big Block Buick is gonna make upwards of 1100 lb/ft TQ n thats the limit of the block n crank no matter what ya do em, i could go a bit more if i were to invest in a aftermarket steel crank and an aftermarket block, but that is more expense than i need to expend to achieve my goal with the car, besides 850bhp from a Big Block Buick is bout the limit of what i can put on the ground in my set up so havin more than that is a waste. My engine makes 554bhp@5760RPM n 568 lb/ft TQ @ 3940 RPM on mtr, i spray a total of 300 in 2 stageswhich puts me right on the ragged edge of what i can put on the ground.
In these days of mega HP engines in excess of 1200bhp folk tend to forget that u can go just as quick with a lot less power if ur application is such that u have a perfect or near perfect workin combination. IE: u can put a 10 sec mtr in a 13 sec car n what ya end up with is a 12 sec car, if ur lucky n good....
Also, in this day and age of new fangled trick of the week parts n technology folk tend to to expect that what used to work doesn't work any more, usually the new fangled things don't work any better than did whatever they replaced, they jus work differently and cost more. Witness the fact that folk were makin 10 sec passes with small blocks in 3500+# rides way back in the 60's with flat tappet cams and less than the best heads or other equipment, as a matter of fact the SS/AA record is currently in the mid 8's and those guys have a whole lot of restrictions and rules that masny folk runnin much slower don't have to adhere to....
FOR INSTANCE, u can't use a roller cam unless the engine was available with one from the factory, u can't b more than .030 over and u can't exceed the factory mechanical compression ratio, u can't use spray, or even a supercharger or turbo unless the ride was factory available with one, u gotta use factory offered heads and factory blocks.
Also, mechanical compression is a sure no brainer way to increase TQ and BHP but it is not the only way and in terms of engine life its not even the best way. hgh compression = short engine life.
All that said, u make valid points about what u percieve is best for ur particular combination n use....
Best way to b a successful racer is to, like YOU, no matter what ya may read or hear tell of, DO NOT STOP THINKING for urself, that way no matter how well something u hear about or read works u have a chance to make it work even better.

wholeheartedly agreed Lou.....i actually have always been a drag racer, had my 1st drag race in my own ride that i was chief cook n bottle washer in 1963 on July 5th...a 1959 98 Olds convert, purchased over 2 years time working for an uncle( who was also my 1st race; and i lost, 5 of my last 7 bucks with his new 1963 Buick Riviera GS 425 2 x 4v, uncle left me on the launch n jus kept goin as long as i tried to chase em).
This taught me a few things: 1) never under estimate the comp or over estimate urself. 2) Tire spin, wheelstands etc are great for spectators, bad for racers. 3) The best working combo always wins the race and the most important ingredients in same r the driver n chief wrench. 4) about ur race ride, keep ur hood and ur mouth closed among competitors and or potential competitors.
As u might gather, my 1st race was a street race and though i have a vast amount of experience going to and racing at the track i yet prefer and do most of my actual racing on the street, mainly because for a little guy racer it pays better and i do NOT RACE FOR FREE, even if i sand bag and purposely loose i still bet( i do that quite a bit sometimes, mostly when and if i race someone at the track). I have on board timers for my rides that tho not completely acurate are quite consistant which serves the purpose of lettin me know if i have made an improvement or not and maintrain consistancy.
Now Street racing is ILLEGAL and contrary to popular belief there is absolutely nothing that law enforcement can do to u when caught that they could not always do. What happens if and when ur caught, as always depends on how the officer writes up the offense and that is dependant upon where and when ur caught and mostly ur demeanor and attitude with the officer. Also, there is a vast difference between a Street Racer and what most THINK is a street racer. The fast n Furious/Biker Boys movies gave rise to a vast number of STREET FOOLS and what we generally call STREET FOOLISH. IF u street race, u must assume the same responsibility for urself and others that u PAY the track to b responsible for and even then IF UR CAUGHT u weren't carefull enuff or considerate enuff of the circumstance of what ur doing; However, done right ur no safer at the track than on the street unless the track is next door to a big hospital with a great trauma unit.
In short STREET RACING is ILLEGAL with good reason as well it should b since this offers at least a measure of control of same. But don't kid urself, the only folk who make money at the track are the track owners and operations personel, everyone else, including the sponsors only SPEND money since ur never likely to make more than a mere fraction of ur investment back as a racer UNLESS ur a HEAVILY SPONSORED TEAM where ur actually not puttin much of anything out of YOUR pocket into the race car, EVEN if u have a driver and u drive to and from the track by the time u get home u've spent a bare minimum of 100 bucks or more especially if u actually RACE, and if u win u have beat hell out of ur ride all day makin any number of passes often to win no more than a 100 bucks clear if not just a trophy and bragging rights, if ur unlucky ya didn't win anything and if ur really unlucky u broke ur ride to boot. Don't Mistake all this as a justification for racing on the street, in my mind the only justification for doing something illegal is if its what needed to save ur life and or to feed ur family and or urself...this is just my reasoning and it isn't for everyone. In fact if i see some fool with the fast n furious crap going on im the 1st to call the cops and the only time i hang out at the local Street Race gathering spots is to play wolf in sheep clothing cull out some unsuspecting potential victim take em off n fleece em.
EVEN still, its all about the best working combination and that means the best combination for YOU and ur ultimate goal with ur ride, as u say, weight, gearing, even the rpm power band of the engine are all factors that must b accounted for. Ur Buddy or someone u read or heard about may have one hell of a combination going, maybe even in the same basic type of ride as u have, doesn't nessecarily mean thats going to work as well for YOU...besides no racer is going to tell YOU EVERYTHING!!!!!! not if they r smart and a winning racer is smart, simple as that.
As i said in other posts, even among so called pro racers, they all want to win but damn few of em want it to b a race and u'll b quite surprised at what they r willing to consider as a win. one of their buds says their ride looks or sounds faster than urs, thats a win. They propose a bet that ur unwilling to match, thats a win. ur ride breaks and they win, no mattter where u broke in the race they consider what they won by as if u ran ur best and didn't break( which is why whatever issue i have in a race i do my best to convince the competitor that was the absolute BEST i could do, that way u get a chance to avenge the loss.)
Something else i expect u have noticed over time is how many folk waste so much money tryin to go fast by constantly changing their combo w/o ever actually flooging out and maximizing the combo they already have, and bigger more expensive is NOT NESSECARILY always better.( In fact it most often is NOT BETTER, usually cause its a mismatch in ur combo) For Instance, i often run quicker with flat tappet hydraulic cams than do other folk with big solid roller cams, simply cause i have as better workin combo than they do. In point of fact, but for the TA all my hot rods are hydraulic flat tappet, and even the TA tho solid lifter is flat tappet...this because many things found in track race cars and in magazines do not lend themselves well to a street oriented vehicle. I have had ONE track only race car, way back in the early 70's, never had or wanted another one, in fact the last time i ran one of my rides uncapped exhaust was 76 and haven't had 1 that didn't have tail pipes since 81. I have built and or tuned and driven a number of turbo charged as well as supercharged hot rods but have never had or wanted one for myself, MY MOTO, keep it simple and as cheap as possible, another lesson learned early on back when my race budget was a whole lot tighter than it is now, yet for the past 21 years i have had winnin seasons where i actually made more than it cost me to field and race whatever number of rides i have raced during a season....on average i clear above expenses 4-7k a year without betting more than 500 on any one race out of my pocket. Another thing i learned a long time ago, BIG BETS result in BIG problems when ya win. some guy looses 100 or 2 and tho they may have some issues its not a real big deal, make that same bet 1k or more and when ya win there r all sorts of issues they r gonna have, then too a big bet in a street race is invariably gonna draw a BIG CROWD of spectators, many of whom are gonna b clowns and wanna b racers causein all manner of unwanted attention to, during and from the race.
As with spray i do not recommend street racing, i simply try to impart some of the wisdom i have gained over the years to anyone else who street races or is contemplating it. Also, all that ya may hear bout how street racers are scared to go to the track is BS, i have raced at tracks all over i have yet to race at one where it took half as much nerve to race as it does at the most safe and secluded spot on the street. At the track u don't have to know a whole lot about the comp goin in, all ya gotta do is watch the clocks to know who u can and can't deal with or whether or not u need to have a handicap to have a fair chance of winnin. At the track u don't have to worry about watching for cops. At the track, traction is goin to b optimized. At the track u don't have to worry about whether UR ride is safe or not, let alone the other guys ride, the techs are gonna insure that for ya, on the street these are all things u have to do for urself and THAT takes NERVE and expertise. At the track u only need to know as much as u can about whatever brand u may choose to run, on the street u better know nearly as much about what u compete against as u do what u compete with. No matter what comes up u have to have a good idea what the potential is and assume that the competitor is goin to achieve just that, if not better.
All in all, ur thoughts about hot rodding are succinct and wholely logical, as u say we have much the same outlook on it jus diff expressions to define it and somewhat diff concepts of how to achieve it...its always good to converse with someone like that, unless ur jus dense ur bound to learn something no matter how much ya THINK ya already know......keep the faith....

The original topic being nitrous use, back to basics,
Unless u have expeience AND or a pro race only car with a crew, FOGGERS, Progressive Controllers, more than 2 stages, are ALL best left where u find them most often, AT THE TRACK on a PRO RACE CAR. For a car operated predominantly on the street EVEN to race, the key words are simplify, dummy proof.
Attention to seemingly small detail is the key to consistancy and safe use.
Always use a throttle switch activation, but never run more than ONE stage on it, if u use a 2cnd stage use a hand held activator n make THIS Stage the larger of the 2.
Many folk run dedicated to the system only fuel systems for wet systems, this can't hurt but for the limit of safe street use its unessecary expense. For a carb application, one Holley Blue pomp and regulator is sufficient, especially if switched to back up a stock mechanical when the nitrous is applied, simply cross wire it into ur relay or relays which activate ur stages. For EFI systems, the addition of a hgher volume hgher presure pmp, such as the walpro is hghly recommended, and in either carb or EFI applications a fuel pressure regulator AND a guage by which to set same is mandantory, its also a goos idea to incorporate a fuel pressure cut off which prevents engagements if fuel pressure falls below a desired level( even with the very smallest of systems in a carb application less than 5psi WOT w/ALL STAGES ACTIVE is a NO NO, with an EFI System it should b set to shut off at anything under NORMAL fuel pressure at WOT when the nitrous is engaged).
STAY AWAY from progressive controllers for all but the most serious race applications, they r an uneeded expense both to purchase and to use since they lead to premature solenoid failure, not so bad in a dry ssystem which doesn't require any fuel enrichment when activated but deadly to ur engine in a wet system which DOES have a fuel enrichment side, even a fuel safty shut off is not a guarantee that activation will cease in time to prevent engine damage since the fuel solenoid would simply fail to open and ur safty switch is upstreem of the solenoid and would NOT read a pressure loss aft of the solenoid; there in lies another expense and complication since to avoid this u would need to mount ur safty switch aft of ur solenoid which is impractical. More practical is to use a staged system and no more than 2 stages, A start Stage and an additional stage activated hand held to engage AFTER the lauch and the chasis has settle, which, in most cases, usually doesn't happen till at or aft of ur 1st gear change, obviously this does not apply with a glide set up where there is only 1 shift.
The reasoning behind this application technique of using an add on staged sytem is simple but faceted, its easier on the solenoids, its less expensive, less complex and far more user friendly, especially for all but the most experienced and hgh budgeted user, IE: nearly dummy proof. Also, with even the most sophisticated electronic ignition systems u can catch said system in transition from one amount of timing retard set to another when useing a progressive sytem, thus u end up needing even more complex and expensive periphial equipment to address this possibility when useing a progresive system which simply pulses some number of noids between open n closed(flutters them) in order to achieve a progressive engagement. This leads to premature noid failure no matter who's progressive system u employ since this pulseing actually burns out the noids contacts prematurely from the continuous arcing of activation. simply the longer they stay on or off the longer they last. NOTE: prefab staged system employ a flip over method of activation, IE: when u activate the 1st stage that retard amount is engaged, when u activate the next stage, the 1st deactivates, returning the timing to normal set then as the next stage activates it retards the timing the amount set for THAT stage...etc.. A matter of microseconds perhaps, still, a pathway to failure, better safe than sorry, employ an add on method, say u want a total of 250 but can't plant that much on the lauch, u test n decide u CAN hook say 50 to 100 maybe 125, make that amount the 1st stage, then wire ur system so that u ADD the remainder rather than switch over to the total. The reason for a staged or progressive system is the same but not for the obvious reason only, the not so obvious reason is simply that the longer during the pass that ur able to apply SOME spray, the quicker ur going to go, simply u'll go quicker on 250bhp if u begin the pass with SOME amount of that applied than if u were to WAIT to apply some or all the amount at some point after the launch.
Very Important that u realize that ALL spray system sets are rated on a 355 cubic inch v8 engine, a smaller engine will incur a greater amount of gain and a larger one will incur less than what the actual set is rated at UNLESS u have pills tailor to give the set increase to YOUR engine size, this is why a 50 shot feels like more on a small engine than it does on a larger one, it IS more. Also, some makes , rather types of engines seem to enjoy a greater gain than others, a TQ monsters such as GM's BOP's and ANY Mopar V8 B, RB, or LA, and Fords 385 n FE series V8 seem to benifit more from spray than do the rever/bhp types like SBF, SBC even to a great degree the BBC. The reason for this is because, tho rated in BHP, what spray actually does is create on demand extra TQ, thus the more tq ur already making when activated the harder the hit.
Tuning: There r a number of ways u can fine tune ur system, the more complex the system, the more complex the fine tuning. and the more passes u need make in order to achieve a finalized tune. Let NO ONE convince u they can build a system thats going to yield max efficiency w/o 1st baselining the system in operation and makin some given number of passes to perfect the tune. Tips: u can harden or soften ur hit by manipulating the distance from the solenoid to the actual entry piont into the inlet, further away yields a softer hit, closer, a harder one. lowering fuel pressure in minute amounts within reason will also harden the hit, as will minute amounts of advance in timing above the recommended 2 degree retard per 100bhp of spray, keeping in mind the effect of having a smaller or larger than 355 cube v8 ur using. For instance, i have a 2 stage total of approx 150bhp on my 78 Buick Lesabre 4dr Sedan which has a 403 SBO engine, 3500 verter, TH350 w/ 3.08 gear n 28" tall rear tires, yet in cooler weather im able to use but 1.8* of retard in total, .5* for the 60bhp 1st stage and and additional 1.3* for the 90bhp add on 2cnd stage on 87 octane, and the same in hotter and or dryer weather by using 89 octane,(octane is yet another minute tuning aid, more octane softens the hit, less makes for a harder hit, this method does so by actually lowering or raising the effective increase of ur spray total).
TAKE THIS TO HEART as fact if u use, plan to use or simply wish to understand the use of spray: spray is a NORMALLY ASPIRATED system, it CAN NOT increase power output past that of what the physical size of the engine under normally aspirated conditions dictates by the laws of Physics, in this instance, known as the TEP(thermal efficiency potential). Simply stated, an engine that has the physical size ability to produce 1000bhp at 100 per cent thermal efficiency can not b made to exceed this amount lest u enlarge the size of the engine and or increase the atmospheric pressure within the inlet of said engine, turbo chargers and superchargers actually do BOTH, spray does neither.
Take with a grain of salt these claims of engines making in excess of 1000bhp on mtr alone still gaining 5-600bhp in spray...the only way that could happen is if said engine had the TEP to create 15-1600bhp to begin with, 1000bhp by the build which left 5-600bhp to b had. The fact is, 1st, there is varitably NO WAY to achieve 100 per cent Thermal efficiency under normally aspirated circumstances w/o spray, there r simply far too many uncontrollable variables. This is why spray even provides additional boost in power even if u use a turbo or a supercharger as well. This is also why tho u may THINK u don't NEED spray for whatever reason, u can damn for sure USE IT and gain from it given the correct application, after all can u ever make TOO much power? No u can simply make more than u can use effectively in ur application. If u can somehow modify ur application to make USE of all ur extra power then it is NEVER too much.
By all this as said long ago, spray can b used by every racer but that doesn't mean its FOR everyone. For the most part the horror stories u hear about spray use are the same as those one would once hear about supercharger and turbo charger use, and the stories result from the same reasons: Misuse, Sub Standard equipment resulting usually from misinformation based on speculation rather than FACTS. These stories bolster fear among potential users and perpetuates itself, each new horror story increases the fear brought on by the last one the person heard.
Hopefully something of what i have thus far posted will relieve some of this and those so relieved can make a more informed decision on whether or not to use spray based on fact, rather than fear. NOTE: Those fine tuning tips earlier mentioned are best left for more experienced days of spray use and understanding, till then buy a reputable system of ur choice, follow ASLL instructions and encluded recommendations to the letter, IF u plan to use the total the kit can flow, still start small and gradually LEARN to effectively use more and more until U reach the max. NOTE: wet Plates are by far the most widely used type of systems, how much they can flow is determined by the size/number of holes in the spray bars.

Main Entry: sum·ma·rize
Pronunciation: \ˈsə-mə-ˌrīz\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sum·ma·rized; sum·ma·riz·ing
Date: 1871
transitive verb
: to tell in or reduce to a summary
intransitive verb
: to make a summary

— sum·ma·riz·able \ˌsə-mə-ˈrī-zə-bəl\ adjective

— sum·ma·riz·er noun

This Thread is supposedly to illuminate the use, more precisely, the safe use of nitrous oxide injection.
By that, any informative truly helpful response to any questions is not going to b short nor singular.
For the grammar/syntax, puctuation police among us, u seem to fail to grasp the concept of the medium in which we have this dicussion. It is an INFORMAL TEXT medium. The prime requirement is that u express an idea or concept by whatever keystrokes u feel best serve that end with the acceptance that those who will benifit from same have a grasp of the primary text and language such that they can grasp concepts and idea w/o the need for ALL words to b posted in correct spellin, punctuation, syntax etc....
Supposedly, we are all adults here and animosity towards one another based on such childish antics is niether productive nor mature.
To include or disclude someone from a topic of discussion based on such BS antics is even more inmature.
If u want to b an instructor in English and literature, my suggestion is that u get into a a job that requires such skills, where u r PAID to police same, THIS is a forum where not only is neither required, neither is very productive to the purpose of the topic or the medium.
However, despite this somewhat prevalent attitude by some participants of this particular thread, u should know that, tho i am always willing to help and impart information to anyone who will benifit from whatever knowlege and experience i have on the subject at hand, it is NO SKIN OFF MY NOSE if some are of such a narrow minded view with such a need to dominate and regulate the topic in such a manner as to place them in some false position of authority that they simply do not get it , can't see the forest for what they THINK are tree's...In fact in my field of motorsports(drag racing) these are those who most often find themselves in my rear view mirror suckin wind pullin hair and pickin up their doors after the race with a lighter wallet. Thus if YOU don't getr it and don't want to hear or believe it, the better for me.
For those of you, in the future, jus do as ya have done, remove my subscription from the thread, keep ur antagonistic comments to urself.
I try to respect everyone and everyones opinion but there can b NO respect coming unless u 1st give same, disrespect does not breed respect, only more disrespect.
I do not play with folk, most certainly not other folks disrespectful inmature children, no matter what their chronological age. Matter of fact, i really don't play at all, i never have, i jus like toys. I can't b bluffed, intimidated or made fearful, but i am the easiest person ur likely to find to scare;even in a medium such as this; hell i like it, i scare myself on purpose jus for the charge. Come at me with that attitude and i can guarantee the response ur going to get is going to b far from the one u may hope for.
Best we keep this to the discussion of the topic in whatever manner any of us desire to do so, save YOUR RULES and regulations about HOW to urself, we'll all b better served.

Awhile ago i posted so Buick Performance claims that seemed to annoy and downright P O some folks, I take that from some of the posts susequent to mine, some were somewhat belligerant. THAT wasn't my intention.
Like most any car crafter/hot rodder i have favs and then i HAVE MY MOST FAVORITE of all. In my case, THAT is Buick. Admittedly I have not owned a great number of rides that actually had a Buick name on em, most of had some other brand name on em but BUICK motors in them. My 1st BOP and ride period of my own that i raced and wrenched myself was actually an OLDSMOBILE, but even then i WANTED a Buick; specifically my aunt's white 1957 Buick Roadmaster Convert. At the time she was willing to take my price but just didn't feel like i was old enuff or responsible enough to own a car, it was my 12th Bday. One of my younger adult uncles felt so bad for me that he began to hire me to help him out, at work, 1st at the Spartan's dept store in St. Louis where he worked and around the house doin his ''homework''. Later, when he moved on the The Corvette facility when it moved to St. Louis from Flint where i now live, i often got a chance to go there with him too. Uncle Joe became the 1st family member, indeed the 1st person I knew to actually own a Corvette NEW, and until ME the ONLY family member to own a NEW corvette, i bought a NEW 2001, after having had a used 70.
Unc promised me that if i worked and saved my money, kept my nose clean, when i turned 14 and could get a permit he would let me have his 1959 98 convert, which was ALSO WHITE, AND in the meantime of that 2 years he would teach me how to maintain it and safly operate it. I was so good at following the guideline he set that i actually got the car BEFORE i turned 14.
I went to summer vacation in the summer of 63 with a straight A report card and got the car then June 14 1963, didn't make 14 till Sept 11 1963, by which time unc and i had already totaled the car and i had moved to MILWAUKEE, where my next car was a 53 Buick 2dr Special with a straight 8, 3 on the tree. I went to mostly Pontiac when i discovered that they had power characteristics that were a blend of those of BUICK and OLDS, AND hop up parts were a lot more plentiful, not to mention CHEAPER than either of the other 2, BUT NEVER was BUICK not my most fav ride.
I'm as fiercly defensive of my fav as anyone else is of their's, but i do so accepting the FAULTS and FAILINGS of my fav as well as the postives, nor do i sugar coat either one.
Since i have been a Buick fanatic, i have studied Buick and Buick's History, especially the performance side of its History which begins at its BIRTH.
Buick is and always has been the PARENT, FOUNDING, INCORPORATING division of GM. To this Day the CEO of BUICK is 2cnd only to the CEO of GM in GM Hierarchy.
To this day, Of the GM divisions that are or ever have been there are but 3 basic GM divisions that GM actually created, the last being GMAC, before that GMC, and before that Chevrolet. Chevrolet, the 1st was created in existing BUICK facilities with existing Buick and OLDS employees, since prior to that Buick and Olds were the only GM Divisions, and all others, including Buick the parent were AQUISITIONS and all but ONE Hostile, as well as ALL divisions save for GMAC were either built or aquired by BUICK MOTOR DIVISION for GM, not BY GM. The one non hostile aquisition was the Dayton Electric Company of Charles Kettering, who became the CEO of Buick after founding Kettering University, formerly GENERAL MOTORS INSTITUTE, of which im a graduate. You likely came to know this company as DELCO. When the driving force behind the creation of GM, William C. Durant Jr., moved on from CEO of Buick to become CEO of GM, CEO of Buick passed to Walter P. Chrysler. When Walt moved on to found his OWN company and AQUIRE Dodge/ Desoto and later Plymouth, Charles Kettering took his Post as Buick CEO. Walt became the 2cnd domestic major auto producer to produce something that even with the aquisition of cadillac/Lassalle and Delco, did NOT produce, a TRUCK and an entry level car. Charles made it his life's mission to remedy BOTH these shortfalls. Hireing the Chevrolet Brothers, both of whom worked then for FORD but RACED BUICKS; Charlie created Chevrolet, with the intent of dividing the division in 2 eventually, one dedicated to entry level cars, the other under corporate rather than divisional control to produce a truck. The evevntual division of Chevrolet in 2 is what led to the 1939 sit down strike that created the UAW. Prior to that any auto worker who was in a union and there were NOT many, were either in the AFL-CIO primarily doing seamstry on interiors or the TEAMSTERS moving materials and supplies by wagon and, after Chevrolet was created, TRUCK.
Pontiac is the ONLY GM aquisition that did NOT include the name and trademark of the aquired, and it is NOT named after the indian chief, the CITY of Pontiac Michigan IS and Pontiac is named after THAT. The head of Chief Pontiac BECAME the 2cnd trademark that GM created, the 1st being the chevy bow tie, which was the design in the wall paper in the paris hotel room where the chevy boys stayed for the PARIS auto show where they found design ideas for the creation of CHEVY cars, their cues for trucks they took from FORD and DODGE. Formerly Pontiac was OAKLAND MOTOR CARRIGES after the OAKLAND CARRIGE WORKS motorized luxury carriges useing CHEVROLET 6 cyl engines and BUICK drivelines. Kettering wanted, a did Louis Chevrolet for OAKLAND to become a CHEVOLET Luxury model, Oakland wanted to remain independant. Bill Durant convinced Oakland that they could incorporate into GM as a seperate division, then took the capitol from the 1st stock offering in same and squeezed the Oakland owners out. Who fought tooth and nail not to b forced out but ended up only leaveing with their name and trademark, and Bill Durant named the division after where it was built, Pontiac. The same engineer who designed the SBC designed 1st the Pontiac OHV V8 and based the SBC on that with a smaller cube capacity in a lighter casting, since prior to that the biggest and only chevy engines were all 6 cyls, the reason thas all the 1st vettes had, while Pontiac and Buick already had straight 8's, Buick 1st, essentually the Pontiac straight 8 is a BUICK, and all cadillac engines since its been a GM division to this very day are built by OLDS based on existing OLDS engines. Contrary to popular claim and belief OLDS is NOT dead at GM, they can't KILL OLDS without killing Cadillac since OLDS builds the engines. Olds is what is now generally accepted as SATURN, in fact the only GM facility that actually has the saturn logo is the Springhill, TN facility and they only do FINAL ASSEMBLY, all production is performed in BOC facilities with the O standing for OLDS, which has always been the GM R and D division, thats what it was aquired for in fact, since they had what became HYDRAMATIC. Prior to 63 late chevy's only auto was a glide, since all others were built by and dedicated to BOPC as it was at the time. They became oil cooled when HYDRAMATIC started to build them vs AIR COOLED when GMC did, thats right, Chevy does not make a truck or a transmission, and GMC hasn't built transmissions since the 63 model year.
This is all that is between the lines of the attachment, and i sincerely apologize to any thread members whose feathers i may have inadvertantly ruffled in my defense of Buick