Thread: Wierd problem, could use some help

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So SPring is rolling around in my neck of the woods, finally! Got my 64 Gal with 4 barrel 352 out and want to start tinkering with it since I had some probs last year before I put her away. Frist some history. First of all, the car was running fine when I rebuilt it after buying it. She had a bent pushrod, replaced and drove it the remainder of that summer. Last summer i was having some ignition probs and couldn't get her running right. Figured the timing chain must be crapped out and was right. Pulled the cover, no teeth! Stole the steel one from my pile of 390 parts, and put her back together. She ran right but was backfiring a bit. Timing still off, but I could live with it.

So last year I start having venting problems. I'd drive the car to work (about 10 city miles) and when I'd park it I'd hear a hissing sound and oil would vent from somewhere in the back of the engine. From what i could tell, the brillo pad looking thing in the crackcase vent at the rear of the intake manifold was plugged solid and the pressure was building up and blowing oil out my rear seal. This sound right to anyone so far? So I have this nice clean powerwashed painted intake sitting around from my other 352, but with no brillo pad thingy(sorry, don't know the proper name for it). This thingy is obviously some sort of oil seperator, but I was willing to go without it, to get the car back on the road. Well the first time around, my cheapness got the best of me so I just used the old gaskets. Well the car wouldn't start and I troubleshot the timing and carb, but it seemed to be a vaccum prob. So I figured the gaskets were crap, so i forked out some money put new gaskets on the intake and put it back together. Should start now right? Nope. BTW, those intakes are about 4000 lbs, fun fun fun. Still seem to have a vacuum leak and she won't start. I think the ignition can be ruled out but not sure. I figure I'll get an electronic ignition soon and eliminate that. I didn't change dist position of points gap since it drove so it shouldn't be a prob anyhow.

Any ideas? I know its hard to troubleshoot over the internet, but maybe someone can think of something to try that i didn't think of, being a shade tree mechanic and all. thanks!!

The brillo thingy is a breather basket. Like Denny said I'd go back and double check everything. It's even possible the dizzy is a tooth off maybe or something similar Do you have any breathers or PVC plumbed in anywhere? Are you running the old valve covers without the pvc and breather holes? You might want to rig up a PVC or breather system if there is nothing used now. G.

P.S. DSC sell the replacement filter for the PVC basket for $10. www.dscmotorsport.com G.

If u lost all the plastic off the gear it has to be in the pan. Or did u drop the pan? If not pop the dis. cap and see if it rotates when the engine turns, if not the pickup screen could be plugged.

For a quick check pull the high voltage wire from the ignition coil to the distributor, outta the distributor. Slide the boot back and tape a spark plug onto the metal terminal on the unplugged end. Lay Mr. sparkplug on the intake manifold and then crank the engine. You should have a nice BLUE spark! If you have a dingy yellow one you have a problem wid dah ignition system. Get back to us we'll have lots O suggestions.

If you have a BLUE one, plug the wire back into the distributor and try the sparkplug on one of the cylinder wires. You should still have a nice BLUE spark just one eighth as often.

Find a timing light and make sure it blinks everytime the timing mark is near the timing pointer while you crank her over.

If this all works you can spend your time looking elsewhere.

I would definitely NOT put new ignition on her until the old ignition works. As Denny sez you may have messed up a wire or something. This could make for real confusion while installing a new system.

ABout the timing teeth, yes I did drop the pan. Sorry should have elaborated.

I checked and rechecked that the wires were all back in place. I cleaned the terminals on the voltage thingy, the name escapes me right now, kind of early. You know the red and black wire to the black thing mounted to front of manifold. Ugh, can't believe I can't think of the name. Anyhow, I've put a timing light on all the wires while cranking to make sure they were all firing, didn't do the spark plug trick though. The timing mark on this engine has never really lined up perfectly, but pretty close, a friend of mine suggested that maybe I had a spun, umm....sheez, my mind is gone. Spun balancer? I looked it over when I replaced the chain and didn't notice anything wrong, but I put on the extra one at the time just to be sure, neither looked bad. I've tried moving the Dist a tooth this way or that way, tried going 180 out, um what else? Made sure that the rotor was at the #1 position while at top dead center, etc etc etc. I haven't messed with the points yet since I don't really know what the gap is supposed to be and I messed with it forever back when it was running. I looked all through my manual and found no mention of what the gap was supposed to be, it just said to gap it. lots of help!

As far as the PVC, I have the original valve covers, no PVC. The venting system seems a little complicated for this old of a car, but everything is back where it was when I dissassembled it. Theres a real nice diagram in the manual of where everything is supposed to be. At one point during all of this the car would start up but would only stay running if she was running balls to the wall, hence my thought that it was a vacuum leak. I assumed that I screwed up a seal on the manifold and took it all off again. Replace the manifold to head gasket and reused the front and rear rubber seasl put it back together, went through the timing thing all over again, and now she won't start at all. I got frustrated with her last year and just put her away for the winter. I'll try some of the tricks you guys suggested and see what happens.

You don't think I should change to electronic ignition though? I thought that would eliminate that part of the problem. I actually build jet engines for a living and I like to go through my troubleshooting tree, and whenever I can eliminate a problem in my troubleshooting, I try to do that. Thanks for the info, and if anyone has anything else, please don't hesitate, I'll try anything at this point. thanks!

The points gap is .017, should come out to about 32 to 35 degrees of dwell. Might want to try putting #1 cylinder on TDC and check to see where your timing mark is on the balancer. Connect the timing light to #1 cylinder and try to start the motor and get the timing set.

As I'm sure your aware trouble shooting needs to be a systematic process but often times it's easy to get side tracked and loose sight of that fact. At this point it might be a good idea to go back and start at the beginning. If you were to bring the car into my shop and explained the situation as you have here these are the steps I would go through:

1. Verify that your getting fuel. Pull the aircleaner and move the throttle, if I get an accelerator pump shot it's good, if not crank the engine and try again. If I still don't get fuel check the fuel filter, fuel pump and fuel lines until I've eliminated the problem.

2. Check for spark. Pull a plug wire and crank the engine if I get spark move to the next step if not, pull the coil wire from the dist cap and try again if I get spark there the problem is in the cap or rotor. If still no spark check the point gap and insure the distributor is turning. If they are OK start checking for voltage in order at the points, coil, voltage resistor, firewall plug and switch. At this point you should have spark.

3. As the distributor has been removed to replace the manifold and there is a question on the balancer the next step is to verify timing and firing order. Pull #1 plug and bring #1 cylinder to TDC on compression stroke. (On the FE you can verify the timing mark by using a wooden dowel put in through the spark plug hole. Turn the engine over BY HAND until the dowel is at the highest point at which point the cylinder is at TDC and the timing marks should line up at zero. If they do not make a chalk mark on the balancer so you know where your at. At this point verify the location of the dist and the firing order. Once that is done. turn the dist until the points just start to open on #1 cylinder.

4. At this point the engine should fire, if not the next step I do is pull the plugs. If sparkplugs have been badly gas fouled THEY WILL NOT FIRE. In most cases they cannot be cleaned and dried enough to make them work.

5. If it still will not run The next step is to pull the carb and verify that I don't have a vacuum leak at the carb base gasket. Finally if the engine will still not run I would pull the intake manifold and see if the manifold gaskets slipped when it was installed (very easy to do when installing a cast iron intake in car). I would then install new gaskets REGARDLESS of what the old ones look like. I personally eliminate the use of the rubber end seal and run a bead of silicone in place of them. Also when I R&R an iron FE intake especially in car, I use my engine hoist. Besides saving my back it's easier to set the manifold in place without the gaskets slipping. If I didn't have the hoist I would rent one!!!

Hope this helps.

Thanks Denny I'm a little more awake now. The Coil, duh

thanks for the exact gap Dave, that should help.

Thanks for the long reply Mike. This is what I have done on your list:

1. Thought the fuel was a prob, had an Edlebrock on and the Acc Pump was bad so I threw on the original Holley/Ford that came with the car. Move the throttle and nice even spray coming out. Fuel prob eliminated.

2.Dist does turn. I put the timing light pickup on every wire while turning over and got nice flashy light for every one, so they are firing. I did NOT check the voltages at all, still haven't gottne around to investing in a nice volt meter. Is it posible that it can be firing at the wrong voltage? Didn't think it could

3. My balancer is well marked and it does line up when at TDC (pretty close, within a CM). At this point the points are opened to the max at that spot. Think I have this part OK

4.I have pulled the plugs and they are used but seem to look alright with some wire brushing. I'm at the point now, where I think I will just go out and buy new plugs and wires, but I don't want to do that and just foul them all up again. we'll see

5. At first i just installed the carb, water spacer, and manifold spacer with crappy used gaskets. To eliminat that as a possibility I dug out some nice new gaskets and installed them throughout. I assume this eliminated that prob. As far as the manifold gaskets, I used the rubber seals as well as some silicone. there is a possibilty it was over kill, but I thought I did an OK job. I did install the manifold by hand, and it took everything I had(as well as a hand from my wife) to get it in there straight but I think I did, and as far as I can tell its all good.
I'll double check though.

I'm at the point where I think i want to just start from scratch and eliminate everything as I go. get new plugs, wires, electronic ignition, new gaskets, carb kit and go at it all over again. Of course if I get it right, i won't know exactly what was wrong thanks for all the responses gentlemen, you've been a lot of help. this is payday week for me so maybe I'll get to doing it this weekend, although I see the forecast has Snow/rain mix for Sat, and I do my work in a driveway not a garage. Oh well. thanks again!!

Mike P, What a nice clear round up!

birchymm: Couple of things...

1) I still think chickening out and replacing the ignition while halfway across the river is BAD policy.

2) Never, EVER, wire brush spark plugs. The porcelan part will become conductive and crap gets blown up inside next to the towers. Those plugs are toast.

3) If the points are wide open at top dead center, things are badly screwed up!!! This is the primary reason your engine is not running.

4) Denny's point about compression is a good one. An old engine that is suffering from low compression can drop to just about NO compression after sitting for a few days because the oil the old engine is relying on for ring sealing runs off. Then the whole problem is increased as the unwary pumps the throttle which washes all remaining traces of oil off.

U need to pull at least one wire off a plug and hook it to a plug laying on the manifold and check for a proper spark.



If you want that engine to run follow these instructions:

A) Put the engine at EXACTLY top dead center of number one cylinder. Not "about" top dead center. Not within a centimeter.
But EXACTLY top dead center. Then mark the damper correctly.

B) Next pull that number one wire stick a plug in it like I keep saying.

C) Loosen the distributor so u can turn it with just a little resistance.

D) Turn the ignition on.

E) Slowly rotate the distributor back and forth, (if you have the distributor in the hole correctly and the wires on the cap correctly), every time the points open, you will get a spark on that #1 plug. You want to stop turning the distributor the INSTANT the spark occurs. This means you spark will occur when the engine is running at exactly top dead center.

F) Lock down the distributor.

If you cannot get the above working you have an engine disabling ignition set up problem you must locate and repair.
This problem would probably stop a new, expensive, ignition system from doing one bit better.

Thank you sir. Didn't know that about the spark plugs Have to try the torch thing, I do have one of those. this thread has motivated me to get out there and work on the thing this weekend, barring any setbacks that my wife might find for me. I'll make absolutely sure about the timing before moving on to anything else.

The points and the condenser are relatively new. Any chance that the condenser would be bad, and what would a bad condenser even do if it was? I understand the ignition system relatively well (obviously not well enough) and I don't think I understand the condensers role.

have to scam a compression gauge off someone or fork out the cash to finally get my own, and maybe that dwell meter Iv'e been lookin at.

The condenser or capacitor in modern speak. Is part of a tuned LRC (Inductance Resistance Capacitor) circuit that is composed of the coil and wiring and the condenser.

Essentially it causes the energy release when the points open to generate maximum spark instead of a weak spark and burnt to-a-crisp points. This is why I keep harping on the "test for a nice BLUE spark" because a weak condenser can cause a weak yellow worthless spark and burnt points while easily still firing a timing light.

You'll get it figured out, Birchy. If not some or all of us are usually around here to lend a virtual hand !!!!

When you hooked the coil up did you get the polarity right? Otherwise, the output will be low if you switched them. Also, you mentioned an oil problem, did oil vapors seep up the dist shaft and coat the points? A shot of contact cleaner, non oxidizing and zero residue might clean them up or you can clean them by sliding a clean piece of paper between the contacts when theyre closed. I have worked on Fords where there was spark but the timing was screwy. The gear on the bottom of the dist shaft had a broken roll pin and would slip and affect the timing. If you suspect the condensor, you can unhook it to see if the engine starts. It won't hurt to let it run a few minutes unhooked. adding an electronic ignition to your existing dist won't solve the problem if it is one I mentioned. If you hook up a complete OEM Ford unit you will need the correct dist, module ( brain box), coil, and ballast resistor hooked to the primary of the coil. Plugs won't need to be changed, but if your plugs are fouled you really should swap them out with new.

to add to the madness did you replace both gears or just the one if memory serves me correctly there was a change in cam timing and if you just replaced the one you may have put one of each in there and this would give you problems. also if any of the plastic slipped past the pick up it could have stopped the pump long enough to strip your dizzy gear