Thread: fuel injection

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don j - hope you don't mind me taken this well written post of yours to help me to help bring this EFI discussion back down to earth. i think not knowing or not understanding it, is what's behind the hesitation to get into it right now, because its one of those deals if you ever got used to it you wouldn't every go back. its a little more cost involved at first but then its almost maintenance free. you will need a good scan tool and know how to read it. ill try to answer some of your ?

dan j- Some folks around here know that I've been lusting for one of those Hilborn EFI’s for some time, so I’ve been trying to figure out all of the ancillary work involved in getting an EFI system to work properly. And from what I’ve learned so far, it’s a whole lot more difficult to convert a carburetor system to EFI than to build your project from the beginning with an EFI system in mind.

mike- if you don't wont to pay for a new system, go to the junk yard a buy the intake, sensors, and wiring harness for about what you would pay for a carb. youll need a good wiring diagram also.

dan j- What I like about EFI (the Hilborn setup is icing on the cake) is that you can accurately fine-tune the system to provide the optimum air-fuel mixture for power (or efficiency) across the entire power curve of an engine. The down side appears to be “that it ain’t simple” for the average person to tune (or program) the system.

mike- that's the whole idea of EFI. there should not be any wasted hp with a well tuned EFI. I'm using a 1993 computer so I can buy a chip to go into my computer that can be programmed to do most anything you wont it to . 1994 up gm computers and most of the after markets computers has to be reprogrammed as a unite.

dan j-But before you even think about the tuning (or computer programming), you’ve got to have the right electrical and fuel plumbing system. There is a computer module and an array of sensors: O2 sensor to read the exhaust and determine if the air-fuel mix is too rich or lean, a manifold pressure sensor, an air inlet temperature sensor, and an engine coolant temperature sensor. And since the EFI system also controls the ignition timing, your ignition system is going to have to be compatible with computer controlled EFI too (no vacuum or mechanical advance).

mike- true, but just think how much better it can get later on down the rd. there is no end to the tuning part.

dan j-What else is unique for the EFI system? You've got to have high-pressure type supply and return fuel lines (50 psi vs. 5 psi for carburetors), a special fuel tank with a sump (or modify your existing tank), a surge tank to help prevent air from being sucked into the fuel line, a fuel pressure regulator, special fuel pump, and special fuel filter. And also, your electrical system and wiring need to be in very good shape... static or noise in your electrical system will mess with the computer module!

mike- don't need a special fuel filter or fuel tank with a sump (or modify your existing tank) a surge tank to help prevent air from being sucked into the fuel line. have not seen any problems with static or noise in your electrical system thatl messed with the computer module yet.

danj-I’m awfully intrigued by the EFI systems, but my ole geezer head has got some more learning to do. Maybe one of the young fellows can help to convince me that it's more simple than it looks

mike (old geezer) i was to, but now im running EFI on everything. what's a carb?????

Check these units out and yes they do them for Chevy
http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/v8_kits-FR.html
http://www.roushparts.com/pdf/402IR.pdf
http://www.roushperf.com/articles/News/402IR.htm

Originally posted by DennyW
3000-2124/56=$4200.00, and I still have to buy the ECU, and extras. Wow!!
I guess I'm old fashioned, but I can buy a lot of carbs, including Predators for that kind of money, hahaha. jmo.

my LT1 20,000 mile motor. complete with sensers. wiring harness and computer was less than 2000.00. could have bought another one last week for 1500.00 didnt have to buy anything else except a fuel pump. thats a nice 300 hp. the bad for you or good for me is with everything else equal im gonna out run you. you cant beat the MPFI.

what you gonna say now?

Originally posted by DennyW
I'm going to say, if you want that system, go for it. It's just a lot of money in my opinion. But, it's what ever you want to run.
My 2.8 Bronco II, carb, beats 4.3 injected s10 Blazers all day.

wrong one tuning on the 4.3. a good 4.3 will run with a good 350. in the 1/4. i dont see where the cost is so far off. on the LT1 alum heads, 20000 mile complete LT1 motor. MPFI, wiring harness, computer complete in the car running good for less than 2000.00
crate motor 1300.00, carb. and intake, 1000.00.?????

Originally posted by DennyW
I was quoting from hcar, on the links he posted. I looked on there for a unit for my FE. For the money, myself, I wouldn't change mine. The amount you spent on yours sounds like a good price.
Myself in my situation, I wouldn't spend another 4200.00, plus digging up the ECU, and goodies.
I ran 3, 4.3's. One guy, I ran twice. As you know, theres not much to tune on them, computer controlled. They were stock. Mine, on the other hand was worked on by myself. At first that little Bronco II couldn't pass a 4 cyl on the high way. Now, it does over 110. Not bad for a 4x4, 5 speed, with big tires.

sounds like it runs good. i would never pay the big bucks for the after market FI. to many in the junk yrd., that can really be fined turned. i got a tune port system that needs a home now i think its all there for a 305.

Originally posted by DennyW
You should post it for sale.

riverhorse was looking at it, you know the funny thing about it, is its not worth much. i have not seen the computer but the intake, sensers, and wiring harness is there and i couldnt get 200.00 for it and if you needed the computer you talking another 100.00. thats less than a carb. the junk yrds are full of them. its just a matter of time.

I don't know why most people are still afraid of EFI systems. We used the basic MegaSquirt system on the boat and this is what I would consider a fairly radical application. While you have to think about what you're doing and plan more than most projects, it wasn't bad.

The link to the MegaSquirt is http://www.msefi.com

I think we have $650.00 invested in the system to date, almost half of that was the (new/blem) Enderle Bug Catcher hat chosen for looks alone. I designed a 1.25" spacer between the hat and blower to hold the eight 80 lb/hr Holley injectors ($25 ea on Ebay). Since this is a ski boat I didn't want the exposed fuel rails of the Bosch style injector. They looked vulnerable to getting torn loose by a tow rope or such, the Holley injectors are designed to fit inside a bore and are center fed the fuel supply. The Holley injectors are also low pressure which simplified the rest of the fuel syatem.

The MegaSquirt controller took a night to build and test. I admit having an electrical engineering degree helped to some degree. The required sensors were all found at AutoZone and Kragen, just found basic GM parts from mid 90's cars.

A similar system from Kuhl Superchargers was around $8,000 and couldn't have been considered within our budget. What I ended up with was similar in cost to a pair of "Ebay" Holley 750's, 2 carb adapter, linkage kit, etc.

With the supplied PC software you make a run and datalog the results. You can then modify the VE table to either richen or lean out various fuel bins. Although there are only 64 fixed points in the stored table, the embedded firmware interpolates between the point to complete the fuel map. Ours was dialed in within a couple of hours.

The last thing we're going to do this spring is add the water/meth injection. This will also be controlled by the MegaSquirt.

Regards, Mark

Originally posted by MAW
I don't know why most people are still afraid of EFI systems. We used the basic MegaSquirt system on the boat and this is what I would consider a fairly radical application. While you have to think about what you're doing and plan more than most projects, it wasn't bad.

The link to the MegaSquirt is http://www.msefi.com

I think we have $650.00 invested in the system to date, almost half of that was the (new/blem) Enderle Bug Catcher hat chosen for looks alone. I designed a 1.25" spacer between the hat and blower to hold the eight 80 lb/hr Holley injectors ($25 ea on Ebay). Since this is a ski boat I didn't want the exposed fuel rails of the Bosch style injector. They looked vulnerable to getting torn loose by a tow rope or such, the Holley injectors are designed to fit inside a bore and are center fed the fuel supply. The Holley injectors are also low pressure which simplified the rest of the fuel syatem.

The MegaSquirt controller took a night to build and test. I admit having an electrical engineering degree helped to some degree. The required sensors were all found at AutoZone and Kragen, just found basic GM parts from mid 90's cars.

A similar system from Kuhl Superchargers was around $8,000 and couldn't have been considered within our budget. What I ended up with was similar in cost to a pair of "Ebay" Holley 750's, 2 carb adapter, linkage kit, etc.

With the supplied PC software you make a run and datalog the results. You can then modify the VE table to either richen or lean out various fuel bins. Although there are only 64 fixed points in the stored table, the embedded firmware interpolates between the point to complete the fuel map. Ours was dialed in within a couple of hours.

The last thing we're going to do this spring is add the water/meth injection. This will also be controlled by the MegaSquirt.

Regards, Mark

i sure wish i had known a little more about EFI back in the early 80 when i started messing with my blowers, i can imagine how much easer it would have been. it might have taken all of the fun out of it thought.

OK. what do you guys need to know about efi Hilborns?

Ok, just found this board. Was doing a search on mechanical fuel injection and this thread came up.

I'm working on an old Algon mech. set up with a Hilborn pump and I was wondering if I could find some actual books or information about getting it all plumbed and working?

This is going on my race car so street driving is not a concern...just WOT!!

Anyone with some insight?
Thanks

Hi all,

It's been my experience that EFI makes a gruntload of torque, gets marginally better fuel economy, and has a pretty thin top end as compared to carburetion. My experience comes from the following:

'86 Ford Bronco, 302/AOD, multiport EFI
'88 Ford Bronco, 351W/C6, multiport EFI
'90 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup, 350/700R4, TBI

I've also got a few riceburners, all SOHC or DOHC 4s or V6s with mulitiport EFI, but I have no carbureted counterparts to compare them with, so they don't count for right now. Besides, the Japanese cars never have any EFI related problems that I have experienced.

Anyway, both Fords have weak top ends, probably due to camshaft design, smallish head configurations, and long manifold runners; yet I have both a 289 2bbl/C4 setup in a '68 Mustang and a 302 4bbl/C4 setup in a '68 Montego that will run circles around the Broncos anyplace in the rpm range. The only real advantage I can positively state that I have with EFI, is that it starts the engine immediately; none of that 30 seconds to a minute of Ford starter noise before the engine catches.

The Chevy is another story entirely. It is strong throughout the rpm range and is fairly comparable to a carbureted engine of the same displacement. My biggest complaint is that it screws up all the time. It's always one sensor or another, or the fuel pump is going out, or the converter isn't locking up. Anyway, the "Service Engine Soon" light must have one heckuva bulb in it, because it's always on, and it hasn't burnt out in 15 years!

Either way, I guess I could take it or leave it. If I had a carbureted ride, I wouldn't change it to EFI for any of the "perceived" benefits that I've experienced. On the other hand, I can't hardly justify junking all those expensive factory electronics and fancy aluminum castings (Ford) for the older stuff. I guess the best deal is to have at least one of both; then when you get tired of one you can drive the other one for a while.

I do know that if you're having trouble with your Ford's EEC-IV, better get yourself a volt-ohmmeter, a code reader, and a Helm factory service manual for your model. And then you had better set aside a good coulple of days to try and find out what's wrong and attempt to fix it. It ain't no carb kit and a set of plugs kind of patch up! Right now, I should be finishing the underhood rewire on the '86 Bronco instead of yakking, but this is easier and it's kinda cold outside anyway. One good thing about the EEC-IV though, there's only 60 pinouts on the computer to identify and trace. Could've been a 100!

As for that stupid Chevy pickup, who knows what's wrong with it? I wish it had a dumb Q-Jet on it, then I could swap it for a Spreadbore Holley!

Randy

I think we are getting away from the intent of this thread, I do not think people are afraid of EFI....there afraid of the price. With after market EFI, you are paying more for the fuel system than the motor.
What I was looking for was a discussion of how to adapt FACTORY EFI systems to their existing engine or a engine they are building. The differences , difficulty & expenses of installing different systems.
Don

Originally posted by Don Meyer
I think we are getting away from the intent of this thread, I do not think people are afraid of EFI....there afraid of the price. With after market EFI, you are paying more for the fuel system than the motor.
What I was looking for was a discussion of how to adapt FACTORY EFI systems to their existing engine or a engine they are building. The differences , difficulty & expenses of installing different systems.
Don

Don, I work with ford EFI all of the time, but not as much as chev, and did my truck and a few chevs. straight from the junk yard for a little of nothing and they work great. i wish i could say the same about a ford, but just hadn't had the opportunity, but if someone was to ask me I believe you can take the factory sensors, intake, wiring and computer off of a late model ford and put it on a older model and it will work fine. the after market wiring sure make it easer, but personally cant see spending 500 to 600 dollars for a wiring harness, but in your case that might be the way to go. if you try one and need some wiring diagrams I can help you there and on the hook-up too. I like the idea of having a choice. it sure would be nice to know someone that had did one, but i cant see a big dif. between the ford and chev. if the intake will work.

Applying modern EFI to a rod is no different than anything else you choose do to it. You can take the high dollar route and purchase a turn-key $3000-6,000 system or go to a salvage yard or swap meet and spend $100. It's more a matter of where your comfort line is with the various arts involved in building a rod. How much can you do yourself, and how much is contracted out.

Most of us can find the basic components required at the salvage yard, we're running motors that in one form or the other were adapted by the factory to electronic management. A 283 or 327 with a mid-80's TPI would look and run great. A manifold including injectors, throttle body, and sensors can be eBayed for $100. A 289 has the same path available to it.

It's the applications like a 7,000RPM 406 small block which would be limited by the factory offerings. In those cases look at what the high-zoot players have done. Buy a tunnel ram base, weld injector bungs to the runners, use a pair of GM throttle bodies on top. Less the computer you could do this for $150-200 and I suspect it would outperform a carbureted system in all regards, all situations.

There are a handful of small EFI computers on the market now, kits down to less than $100 can be found if you search the web.

Like everything else we do on our rides you need to know your limits. Mine is tinwork, I can't remove the smallest ding without destroying the complete panel. I leave this to someone else. If you're an electrophobe, then stay away from the ECU end of the project. That doesn't mean you can't tear a manifold off a junked 87 Camaro. The 17 year old computer geek next door can probably help you through the ECU build and installation. The worst thing is you may waste a couple of weekends and a couple of hundred dollars in the process.

Experiment, have fun, learn something new. There are forums just like this one devoted to EFI conversions with people happy to pass on their experience(s).

Regards, Mark

Freightrain, just got back from some holidays and noticed your request. There is a good book available from "Motorbooks International". It's the Powerpro Series called
Fuel Injection
Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications
Jeff Hartman is the author. There is a code on the back of the book that may help a bookstore find it: ISBN 0-87938-743-2
It's good reading for what you will need to know.
As stated by others, efi can be and is usually expensive. But be resourceful(and lucky), you can do it reasonably. I just picked up two Accel EFI BBC intake systems That were on a pair of 572 C.I. engines, from one ebay auction. Besides the intake and fuel pump systems there are two Speed Pro ecu's with the wiring harnesses and sensors. These are the wide band models. Just one ecu and harness is $2800. I got everything plus the shipping for less then 1/2 of that. When I get some time, I'll sell what I don't need and have the two ecu's with harnesses plus the three fuel pumps for nothing. It doesn't get better then that.