Thread: I found what blew in my engine!

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Hey Don;
To bad you didn't have my number Don I would have come and got you and it' would not have costed you $500 bucks buddy. Just a little gas money but it wouldn't have been but a few bucks compared to that bank roll you dropped. I hope they pay you back for your loss. Not trying to throw salt in the wond just giving you a heads up for next time, which hopefully there won't be. Kurt

Thanks Kurt. I'd never impose on you that way, but it was super nice of you to offer. If it is closer to you though, not clear up in Daytona, I might take you up on it sometime. I always like to see you and your wife anyway.

Paul, yep, things can always be worse. From the noises coming from the engine I was certain something was really tearing itself apart in there.

Dave, you are my kind of fisherman! I mean, if you catch one you have to clean it and cook it. So much easier to go to a seafood restaurant.

Don

Today the new pulleys I ordered from Runne-Rite came in for my sbf, and they are totally different in diameter than the set I had on it from Zoops. Now I can see why I might have had problems with the two water pumps. The crank pulley from Zoops is 6.5 inches in diameter and the water pump pulley is only 4.5, so it is overdriving the water pump by about, what, 50%? By contrast, the new pulleys are both 5.5 in diameter, so it is one to one.

Since I was running for hours at 3000 rpms, that would mean the water pump was spinning at 4500 all that time. And the few times I ran through the gears at 6500, the pump must have been turning 9000. No wonder those spot welds didn't hold. I bet it will also run cooler with the water flowing through the radiator slower.

Ford Racing promised to have their head tech call me after the Holidays, and yesterday he did just that. Very nice, helpful guy, and he said the only times they have seen problems with this pump is where someone uses silicone sealant to put both back gaskets on (said silicone is slippery and slides off) and the other times was where someone was spinning the pump too fast. Ford Racing discontinued the correct pulleys to make this setup work, but Runne-Rite started making them to the same dimensions as Ford recommended, so these new ones should work much better.

Look at the picture below. The Zoops are on the left side, and the Runne-Rites are on the right. You can see how much faster the Zoops would spin the water pump. Live and learn, I guess.

Don

Hey Don:
I might have missed it, did you say how much the runne - rights were???
Are you gonna try to get your money back from Zoops, they look pretty new.
Kurt

About $ 230.00 for the set, Kurt. No, when I bought the pulleys from Zoops they were very honest with me and said that because Fords have so many combinations they couldn't say if these would work or not. Because Ford Racing had discontinued their pulleys I was on my own to find ones to make this thing work. So I can't really blame them.......I'll use them for something else someday, or have a pretty nice paper weight for my desk. I also had the back of the crank pulley machined to fit my Ford Racing damper, so returning them is not a possibility.

I tried March Pulleys first, and they treated me like I had the plague. Rudest people I have ever met, and they are right down the road from me in Naples, Fl. I had a bad experience with them when we were trying to convert Don's serpentine setup to v belt, but I thought they might have changed.....fat chance! I asked if I could drive down to show them what I had so I could buy some pulleys from them, and they sternly told me "We don't sell retail." Ok, I'll buy from your dealer once I know what I need, can I come to your shop. "NO." I wasn't welcome so I finally found Zoops.

I didn't know Runne-Rite existed until just recently, or I would have gone there first. From all that I see, these should help solve the problem. Both sets are polished aluminum, but just look black because of my great photographic skills.

Don

Its still a shame that it had to come to this to fiqure out that they were`nt right.

Yeah, you're right. That inch and a half I shaved off my engine sure ended up costing me a bunch of trouble and money. That's what I get for liking sbf engines, they are just so **** long.

Don

Don just read this whole thread tonight. Glad to hear you found the cause of the noise.
When I was building my engine I had a heck of a time finding the right pulley setup, but it seemed March performance was my only choice. The problems I had were they under or over drive pulleys trying to get extra power out of the engine, since I used a high flow water pump, I didn't want to overdrive the water pump with a small pulley, and vice versa under drive the alternator. I think ultimately there are just fewer choices for us Ford guys. I ended up using the stock pulley on the 460.
I'll have to take a look at Runne-Rite so I can see if they have any options that will work on the 460! Hope everything goes smooth from here on out.

They are nice people to do business with, Steve. The guy I talked with there knew his stuff and was very helpful. If they have what you need I think you will be very happy doing business with them.

Don

You'da figured being local Merch would want your business ... just goes to show you ...

Good to see that the end result is you've found the right combo that'll make you ride ... a dependable ride.

Oh ... Happy New Year Don.

Paul

Same to you, Paul.

Don

I don't think the water pump rpm had anything to do with the welds breaking--it was a marginal design change for a non-existant reason---and an inferior method of manufacture.
And then there was the mix/matching of non compatable pieces---Ford shortened the water pump to allow the 302 to be put in the t bird/cougar late 80s or early 90 as the engine was too close to the front of the car for federal crash specs---there was a complete series of parts involved with everything that had to do with the accessory drive / mount system. Your mounting and modifying( what rodders do) of these components ( shortening dampner drive hub) might of had more to do with setting up a vibration/harmonic in the drive system that caused an faulty weld to fail.

I think you might be right, Jerry. The guy I spoke with at Runne-Rite told me he used to work for Ford Racing and said " They know they have had problems with that pump, they should have told you that." I figured that pump and timing cover had to come off of some stock application, like the T Bird you mentioned, but I have never been able to find what stock pump it is. The guy at the Ford Racing booth at Turkey Run said this is a custom made unit that they machine the end off of to pick up 1.5 inches, but I can't see them not using a stock pump and timing cover if possible. Wish I could find out the exact application.

The weirdest thing was how that flat steel plate was totally reshaped into a cupped plate by the spinning vanes, I guess. What ever did it rolled the edge of the flat round plate into a perfect lip..........never seen anything like it.

Don

Don - it kinda looks like an Explorer pump and similar to what came off my crate motor - but yours is standard rotation - I believe ?????

Yes, they make this one in two versions, standard rotation for V belt, and ccw rotation for serpentine.........mine is V belt. When I was running around Daytona that Friday, trying to round up parts to fix my pump, the parts guy at a Ford dealership made me a printout that shows this pump as being used on a 351 mid 80's Ford F150 , but they didn't stock that pump. I took that info to a local NAPA and Advanced Auto and their pumps for that truck were totally different than mine.

I do know that to make this setup work I needed to buy a special timing cover that appears to be late model because it has that proviision down low for a crank sensor. It had some part numbers on the inside of it, but I didn't think to write them down before I installed it. Those numbers might have clued me in as to what this thing was designed to fit.

I almost chucked the whole setup and was going to order a Snow White short water pump assembly, but I am so deep in this thing now moneywise that I have to give it one more shot. I have a feeling that this may be the cure.

Don