Thread: Egr?

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What are the various state laws (Virginia in particular) regarding EGR on SBC in older cars with titles dating before the emission rules? Not only is the Edelbrock Performer-with-EGR more expensive than the Performer-without-EGR, the performance looks to be less with the EGR. What is the policy regarding retrofitting a SBC in an earlier car that is titled before the '70s and the engine came with an EGR unit? How careful are inspection sites regarding engine serial numbers as to the date of manufacture and emission laws?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally posted by Don Shillady
What are the various state laws (Virginia in particular) regarding EGR on SBC in older cars with titles dating before the emission rules? Not only is the Edelbrock Performer-with-EGR more expensive than the Performer-without-EGR, the performance looks to be less with the EGR. What is the policy regarding retrofitting a SBC in an earlier car that is titled before the '70s and the engine came with an EGR unit? How careful are inspection sites regarding engine serial numbers as to the date of manufacture and emission laws?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Dunno ..... I live in the boonies ... no inspection here.
I think tho in most states emissions requirements are based on what your model year came with from the factory, same for safety equipment, etc.

Originally posted by Streets
[/B] U do have a reggie for the car yer buildin' Don'tcha??? [/B]

ooooh ooooh . Never considered the "NO REG. scenario. Never assume HUH. I took my title to the DMV and got it reg. right away. Guess ya' could always move ta' Wyoming. You could drive for days out there with anybudie' even knowin' you were on the road. He He He

Yeah, I have a Va Title for a 1929 Ford Roadster (I even have plates for a car that is incomplete in my garage!), and I suppose since the non-EGR intake is 50 state legal for most SBC 350s the only problem will come if someone matches the motor number to a year list with models. My Chiltons manual for '63-'82 Corvettes does list Corvettes with EGR. Since I am only interested in low speed torque maybe the easy way out of this problem is to just put the stock iron EGR manifold back on? The cam is rated at 1000-4200 rpm and some dyno studies I have seen on the Chevy Performance site

(http://www.73-87.com/chp/gm350.htm)

show that the non-EGR Performer intake actually loses torque in the 2000-2500 rpm range compared to a stock iron intake and that is the range I will be cruising in with the 2.79 rear gear. Maybe this just tells me to dip the iron intake and paint it Chevy orange like the rest of the block and then I will really have almost a stock 350 with headers but it will still be more than I would have had in my memories of a flathead even with a 4" crank, so the light body should still move OK on the Interstate! (Air resistance with '29 fenders may be the limiting factor!) On another thread regarding painting with a brush, I recall flooring my '31 Fordor on a downgrade on one of the very new Interstate Highways (I-76 just west of Phila, the infamous Schuykill Expressway, aka Shortkill Expressway) in 1954 and being disappointed that it only did (a rather wild) 64 mph. Years later when I studied Model-As more I found out that they were only rated at 62 mph stock! Thus If I can cruise at 65-70 on modern interstates that will be OK and if the traffic response is from boggesville, I will then add a 3.55 rear gear and then take whatever mileage I get (15 mpg?) noting as several of you have commented that this will not be a daily driver in any case. Thanks, maybe you have helped me figure out that I can just put the iron manifold back on. On the other hand I can bite the bullet and buy the more expensive and more complex Edelbrock 3701 EGR manifold. I will think this over but the dyno runs in the site listed above say I will actually lose torque in the low rpm range. Anybody out there know tricks to improve low rpm torque now that I have a 194/204@0.050" cam? Will small diameter tube headers (1 1/2" ) improve low rpm torque?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is certainly not a popular topic. I am posting to myself to give this topic one more shot at some answers on this topic. So far I do not see any data on the EGR-Performer on 350s, just 305s (SBC). Does anyone out there have experience with the EGR-Performer intake (3701)? In particular the site given above shows that the performer REDUCES the torque compared to the stock iron EGR intake in the 2000-2500 rpm range where I hope to cruise with my 2.79 rear! Comments?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally posted by Streets
EGR is NOT required on my cars! and IF it wuz, I'd have a block-off plate under it anyway.. !!

Exhaust Gas Recirculation

Spoz' a turbo could be passed off as an EGR valve. He He He
It's a bit of a stretch I know.

Nah, theres a very easy way to deal with EGR. Take a vacum hose, lead it to your EGR, then attach the other end to a blocked off T. Problem solved . Seriously though, with an EGR, chances of you getting into any serious trouble are slim to nill. just make sure you have the Cats on and 99% of all mechanics/inspectors will pass you right through. if you diddnt have cats to start with, 100% will pass you through. just be sure to pay him.

Thanks for your comments. Today I learned of another option. My son-in-law has a restored '68 Corvair Convertible and he has it registered as an Antique Vehicle. He says technically you are supposed to limit it to 3000 miles a year or less, but NO INSPECTION IS REQUIRED! I would rather go the route of the standard inspection but the Antique plate route might be an alternative plan. No comments about better low speed torque with the stock iron manifold?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I would guess that the stock manifold has more torque because of the smaller runners and higher volicities through the runners more than the fact is has an egr, just a guess though. This would increase torque but hurt the upper rpm range of torque and hp. ON the smaller diameter headers for more torque, you should also get more torque there too, since it should help due to the same good volicities at lower rpm's which should help lower rpm exhaust scavaging.
A friend of mine found is looking to do the same thing as you are with your motor, make a low rpm torque motor with good gas milage. He found some kind of strange edelbrock intake that was tuned specifically for the purpose of low rpm torque. I need to find out the name of the intake. It has small runners for volicity and some unusual dual plane setup. I will get back with you when I find out more about it. Edelbrock quit making the intake quit a while back though so they aren't available new anymore. He found the intake on e-bay.
Don C

EGR isn't all bad - it redirects some echaust gas back into the intake stream at high rpm/load conditions - purpose is to lower the temp of hte combustion to limit NOx emmissions - so it will lower performance BUT on the plus side, especially on a street car, will reduce the chance of detonation (pinging / pre-ignition) because the combustion temps are lower.

Don just caught up with your thread,
Here in St.Louis we go to a repair shop for the safety inspection and then one of the State places for the sniff test on a dyno.(we usta do the sniff,but they decided we was cheating) 1971 and lower cars are exempt from the sniff test but everything has to have the safety, Now comes catch 22
Say if you install a 2004 engine into a 27 T , the law says ya gotta meet the 04 engine emmissions, Now it is the safety inspectors job to check for the proper emission devices ! We collect $12 for the safety test and the state gets $1.50 of that, I can tell ya that if a guy comes in with that 27T with a 04 engine I'm not about to fart around finding the engine numbers and then cross referencing for emission controls (not for $10.50) Now the ones I hate are the guy who shows up with a 88? camaro with a big block? all I can say is he's got problems cuzz I'm sure the powers to be would make an example out of the guy caught passing that one, (But it ain't gonna be me !!!! ) My little 5 window has the original 1931 title and thats what it's registered as, and I don't guess the Highway patrol is too concerened as I once got pulled over by em but the guy just thought it was cool and wanted to check it out.

As much as PA is maligned by folks, even those that live here, we got the best emmissions get around there is - as long as you drive less than 5,000 miles a year, it is exempt from the emmissions test. Perhaps the visual test still applies,but no one looks.

I have a 90 Jeep Wrangler, (built new with a 4 cyl & EFI) with a non-computer anything, non-cat, chevy 305 4 bbl. Aww, the sweet smell of exhaust!

Can anyone recommend a small digital speedo that can hook to a 700R4?

Yeah, but this is the vehicle that the tach is readin' twice reality.

If i drive under 5k (as i should) then no probs. If i get to 5k and want to keep going, and avoid the emmissions testing, i was thinkin a 'temporary' speedo. The digital ones are cool - remember 0-60 times! the million mile odo is a bit much!

I think it is accurate speed wise now, or very close. have to follow someone at a given speed and see.

Thanks a bunch to all of you, I have learned a lot about meeting emission controls. On the one hand my '76 Corvette engine is over 25 years old and the car is registered as a 1929 Ford, but I would like to use standard plates and not revert to antique plates yet. I mulled over the choice of intake and today I ordered an Edelbrock Performer-EGR after I took apart my stock manifold EGR setup. My reasoning is as follows (I may be wrong). Yes the stock manifold actually gives better torque at low rpm, probably by virtue of narrower runners which packs more fuel-air mixture in the cylinders by ram-charging. This means it is actually using more fuel down in low rpm since the energy comes from the fuel. Thus with the Edelbrock Performer I will indeed get less torque but use less fuel in high gear? Then when in second gear on a kick-down or in acceleration the Performer will show it's worth in the 3500-4000 rpm range when I may want to accelerate. In addition, the Aluminum manifold is probably only half the weight of the iron manifold. I also picked up a rebuild kit for my Quadrajet and it is really a chinese puzzle that I will wait until I have a lot of time and patience to do. I also learned something I would not have thought of by myself in that I can buy universal-cats for about $55 each and put one in each exhaust pipe to meet the catalytic converter requirement. Further, today I bought a set of absolutely beautiful chromed SBC valve covers with a built-in PVC valve. Thus I hope to present PVC, EGR and Catalytic Converters to Va Inspection in the hope that they will not bug me on the lack of an air pump. I just want to say that your comments have been very helpful. Thanks! The engine is incredibly beautiful with the block in Chevy Orange with chromed tin parts axcept for the pan which is also Chevy Orange, I will try to post a picture as soon as I get the heads and manifold on. Realistically I think this setup will get about 260 H.P. at 4500 rpm and hopefully better than 300 ft. lb. at 3500 rpm with the Performer, Crane cam and 1 5/8" headers and that is a lot more than I would have got with a 4" stroker flathead and I look forward to real fun and MAYBE 17-18 mpg with the 2.79:1 rear gear?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

76 vette...did it come with an air pump? I know a 29 anything never did. I saw TONS of cars adn truck with dead or missing air pumps pass emmissions tests (idle test).

Not sure if the hiway mileage will be affected by intake efficiency at a given RPM. Reason being, it takes X HP to move your car down the road at Y MPH. Whether you make that HP with a 4 cylinder or a big block, at 600 rpm or 6000, X HP is still what is required. By moving the efficency up the torq curve, you may need more throttle opening to generate that HP at the given road speed, so MPG goes down. BUT if the engine is overal more powerful, then less throttle should be needed at any given rad speed, so mileage goes up. Glad to know we don't know, huh?

Thermostat - lower is better for HP, higher better for emmissions.

for better gas mileage, try overdrive - you can get a well built 700R4 for $1700 w/ converter from TCI (b&m as well). For another $100 you can add a ock up torque converter (computer is what costs the money) and get 5% more hiway mileage.