Thread: High Power Flathead

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Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Ken, when I first heard of those the story was they were targeting the lakes racing crowd. Never have seen or heard of a set in use, there must be some out there though. About a year or so ago the tooling for those was up for sale. Seems I remember the original guys were in No. Cal. so apparently the guy near you bought the tooling?

Bob, I have set #44, they really look nice. Some one, either this guy or some one else spent some time on them.
Ken

Nitrowarrior, Only 300 H.P.? Back in the fiftys 200 H.P. was considered hot and the 8CM fourdy shows above is one sweet flathead! Here are some pages from the Newhouse Special Handbook circa 1952 (the 14th Edition!). Over the years I penciled in the H.P. data for a high reving OHC Pinto 2000 and the tiny 1275 cc MG Midget engine but you can see that anything over 120 H.P. was semi-hot on the street for the time, 300 H.P. on the street would make fourdy king of the hill until about 1953!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Nice old stuff you have there Don.
Today's part and smart geometry make 300hp a Sunday stroll on gas, naturally aspirated.
I don't understand where the fear plays into building a strong flatty that lives.

THIS IS A INTERESTING BUILD ON A 4" STROKE MOTOR, 280 CU. IN. BLOWN. IF YOU CLICK ON DYNO REPORT


http://www.tr-designs.com/FlatheadMain.htm

I made my statement above, and so far, I'm not convinced

What I've seen and not made much if any comment on is that 400Hp is virtually a myth - and almost impossible on a "standard" Ford 239 plus whatever bore and stroke flathead without a very high output supercharger. I see people closing on 300 Hp on the site that Ken has shown - and with a nicely built engine. I really haven't seen any numbers anywhere near that mythical 400 number. Three main bearings........BANG.............massively shrouded exhaust, even with a splitter, an intake system that makes today's designers shudder, cylinder heads, even the pretty ones Ken pictured, that can't move air well, an oiling system that is inadequate, a cooling system that is horrible

The last flattie I built was 3 5/16"+.030 x 4" (~283cid) triple 97's, Offie heads and a Clay Smith track cam, port and polish, etc, etc, etc and I know it wasn't more then 225-250Hp, if that. It was replaced in the car with a 312" Y block Ford that was "225Hp" according to Ford lit that could run rings around it - before I did anything to it internally. Now, with that said, these are 'seat of the pants' numbers - except for the 0-60 times as well as quarter mile.

400Hp - please show me a streetable engines set of numbers. Has 400 been made - I'm sure, but who and when and how

Without trying to whiz in anybody's Wheaties, h.p. talk without dyno data to back it up is.......................well, just talk. We sometimes play around with "desk top dyno" numbers, but ever since I did one of those on a 440 Mopar I had in the '64 Savoy I've not been a believer.............it was great for brag, but overestimated in my opinion. And Levi's dynos are all guess or wishful thinking. Neat for conversation but after that............................well, on second thought, it might have value if you're trying for a Nobel Prize in Horse Power.

To answer somebody's question about Joe Abbin....he's a flathead expert out of Albuquerque who specializes in flathead engines. He has about 15 years in selling high performance parts and supercharger kits for the flathead. I have contacted him about my flathead and probably will install one of his Weiand blowers on my 52 Ford motor.

Originally Posted by IC2

I made my statement above, and so far, I'm not convinced

What I've seen and not made much if any comment on is that 400Hp is virtually a myth - and almost impossible on a "standard" Ford 239 plus whatever bore and stroke flathead without a very high output supercharger. I see people closing on 300 Hp on the site that Ken has shown - and with a nicely built engine. I really haven't seen any numbers anywhere near that mythical 400 number. Three main bearings........BANG.............massively shrouded exhaust, even with a splitter, an intake system that makes today's designers shudder, cylinder heads, even the pretty ones Ken pictured, that can't move air well, an oiling system that is inadequate, a cooling system that is horrible

The last flattie I built was 3 5/16"+.030 x 4" (~283cid) triple 97's, Offie heads and a Clay Smith track cam, port and polish, etc, etc, etc and I know it wasn't more then 225-250Hp, if that. It was replaced in the car with a 312" Y block Ford that was "225Hp" according to Ford lit that could run rings around it - before I did anything to it internally. Now, with that said, these are 'seat of the pants' numbers - except for the 0-60 times as well as quarter mile.

400Hp - please show me a streetable engines set of numbers. Has 400 been made - I'm sure, but who and when and how

DITTO, Let's see 'em

Deafeningly quiet from the 400Hp group

I'm of the age that I recall Hot Rod Mag (1955 or 6) with a cover story extolling the fact that they were able to get 1Hp/CI out of a 265 CID Chebbie on "high test" pump gas and sounding like a miracle had happened.

I appreciate all of the replies. I wanted to build an engine different than the the typical SBC. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem realistic to get a lot of performance out of the flathead Ford. I've decided to focus my attention on building a Hemi.

Okay brother Patterson, your turn at bat!

I copied this off a Rod and Custom article.
Ken





What you see here, however, isn't just a pair of reproduction heads atop a Ford block but instead a brand-new, 284ci, all-aluminum improved block, reproduction Ardun heads, and vintage 4-71 blower (the only old part on the whole deal) bolted to a new manifold from Ken Austin. Yeah, you should be impressed. And, how about 382 hp at 5,300 rpm, roughly four times that of a stock Flathead? We've seen the dyno sheet, which also reveals the 396.9 lb-ft of torque produced at 4,300 rpm.

This is a naturally aspirated one Popular Hot rodding did.
Yes, I'm going to beat this to death
Ken





To recap what's been done so far, our engine is based on a '48 Mercury block that has been given traditional relief: The intake and exhaust ports have been cleaned up, cylinders have been bored to 3 5/16 inches, and it's equipped with a 4-inch stroke Merc crank that results in a displacement of 276 ci. Internally, there are no real trick pieces; the rods are stock with most of the other parts coming from the Speedway Motors catalog, including the Isky Max I cam, valve springs, stainless 1.60 intake and exhaust valves, cast pistons, bearings, gaskets, water pumps, and a variety of bits and pieces. We used lightweight lifters from Reds Headers, a modified oil pump, and a full-flow filter from Motor City, along with Total Seal rings. The heads and intake manifold are Sharp, and we also tested an Offenhauser intake from Speedway Motors. Jere Jobe rebuilt the carburetors and converted the stock distributor to electronic., and we planned on testing on MSD.

Many of the decisions about what components to use in our engine were influenced by research done by Joe Abbin of Road Runner Engineering. His computer modeling indicated that the Sharp heads, a mild relief and the Max 1 cam would provide the best results and meet our goal of a strong street engine with broad, flat horsepower and torque curves. However, we have to confess we thought Joe was being optimistic when he projected 176hp and 250 lb.-ft. of torque. So, after Tom Cox completed all of the machining operations on the block and balanced everything that moved within a gnat's eyelash, we kept our mouth shut when John Beck at Pro Machine started to put it all together. The last thing we wanted to do was forecast big numbers, only to fall short. After all, 160 or so horsepower out of a Flathead without a lot of displacement or a laundry list of exotic parts is very respectable. Keep in mind that 170hp is very impressive, and 176hp is in our wildest dreams category.

You can drag this into the dirt and put wish in one and and $h!t in the other.
You're looking at ancient technology and limiting the project to a mere 276 cubes.
Achieving 1 HP per cube (even in a flattie) is simple. I deal with 341.7 cubes.
Put forth the effort to use your own money and common sense, using your resources for the right component, you'll see 400 at around 5300.
Ken, you PM'd me and I responded. You're jerking my chain and won't open your eyes. Too bad.

“……….Okay brother Patterson, your turn at bat!......”

Gee Uncle Bob I really don’t know what to say (but you know that has never stopped me before )

I hope this does not come across as snipping because it’s not intended to. I looked over Maxb49’s posts and all I can come up with is he wants to build a hot rod from scratch and doesn’t want to use a SB Chevy. Some of the engines he’s looked at are the 331 Caddy, flathead and now 426 based HEMI. That covers a LOT of potential territory. All of those engines and several others are good candidates depending on what exactly the car is going to be and what he expects to do with it.

I’d like a little something more to work with than a general HP figure. Size and weight of the car, INTENDED USE and transmission preference (to help figure where the torque needs to be at, gearing and useable RPM range) etc.



(and you thought I was asleep )