Thread: 454 or 460?

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I've been in on so many of these ford vs chevy vs chrysler arguments I lost track decades ago. These days it looks more & more like the argument should lean towards American vs the rest. If the big 3 don't get their act together soon, we'll all be drivin' ricers.
Now there's an argument worth winning.

Originally Posted by chopped66impala

i know what youre sayin, like the fact they dont run on rice aye

no i not going to get in it to deep on hear let this post die.. as far as the ricer stuff that a wast of my time beating that dead horse. alot of the stuff i use is not much gm casting numbers on it any ways . i said about all i needed to say for now we will leave it at that

Originally Posted by chopped66impala

what about oil surge? on the street with a big torquey engine or especially anything on the drag strip wouldnt the g forces slam the oil backwards into the rear of the engine-like it does when you put your foot down and it slams you into the seat-coincidently where the dip down in the sump and oil pickup are on a chev away from where it is on a ford? which is why they woulda needed 'trap doors' and to keep the oil there sorta fixes to problems caused by putting the dissy at the front, is that a more functional reason for putting it at the rear? id tend to worry about that way before worrying about cams twisting or you could have bigger problems haha. i realise extreme engines would have dry sumps though but would this be a problem on the street and street strip cars? just throwin another theory out there

chopped66impala,

Where an oil pump is on a Ford engine is of little concern relative to its oiling capabilities, as they use a gerotor oil pump...unlike the chevy which has the more cavitation-prone spur gear oil pump. Good thing that GM puts that pump DEEP in the oil sump and practically submerged in the oil....but they are still way more prone to cavitation just the same.

What matters most (in your provided g-force scenario above) is not where the oil pump is but actually where the oil pump's PICKUP is. And a Ford can utilize a pickup tube that extends to the rear, too, just look at the selection of rear pickup applicable performance oil pans for the Fords. And, I can personally tell you that in drag racing we have used 1-1/16" OD pickup tubes from the front mounted oil pump to the rear of the pan, with blown alcohol power and big gummy drag slick g-forces, and even with such a huge pickup tube did not experience any oil pressure issues drawing that big column of oil from the pan. (Again, this is more likely to be an issue with the GM spur gear pump, though).

So, the Ford has the oil pump next to the timing chain where it belongs and can also draw oil from the rear of the pan like any other engine out there. Best of both worlds.

Paul

p.s. Interesting dry sump story: Up until 2001 even some Top Fuel cars were still running internal oil pumps, and they only reason those guys went dry sump is because NHRA announced they'd start fining teams for oiling down the track with a catastrophic engine failure...at which point those teams determined the price of upgrading to a dry sump system was less than the fine for oiling down the track.

Originally Posted by Paul Kane

chopped66impala,

Where an oil pump is on a Ford engine is of little concern relative to its oiling capabilities, as they use a gerotor oil pump...unlike the chevy which has the more cavitation-prone spur gear oil pump. Good thing that GM puts that pump DEEP in the oil sump and practically submerged in the oil....but they are still way more prone to cavitation just the same.

What matters most (in your provided g-force scenario above) is not where the oil pump is but actually where the oil pump's PICKUP is. And a Ford can utilize a pickup tube that extends to the rear, too, just look at the selection of rear pickup applicable performance oil pans for the Fords. And, I can personally tell you that in drag racing we have used 1-1/16" OD pickup tubes from the front mounted oil pump to the rear of the pan, with blown alcohol power and big gummy drag slick g-forces, and even with such a huge pickup tube did not experience any oil pressure issues drawing that big column of oil from the pan. (Again, this is more likely to be an issue with the GM spur gear pump, though).

So, the Ford has the oil pump next to the timing chain where it belongs and can also draw oil from the rear of the pan like any other engine out there. Best of both worlds.

Paul

p.s. Interesting dry sump story: Up until 2001 even some Top Fuel cars were still running internal oil pumps, and they only reason those guys went dry sump is because NHRA announced they'd start fining teams for oiling down the track with a catastrophic engine failure...at which point those teams determined the price of upgrading to a dry sump system was less than the fine for oiling down the track.

Paul while your on the oil pump here, My engine rebuilder put in a mellings high volume oil pump on my long block rebuild. I've heard a million thought pro and con on these and wondered your opinion on my mild build, weekend cruiser 460 with DOVE-C heads? Have heard they can where the distributer gear down from one guy, never heard that before, esp, since it drives the pump with a shaft!

never have had a oil pump problem with a bbcgear oil pump you can balance them by cutting feeder pickup s in the well of the pump . and bottom plate gears or buy one done . gear are ok not that big of a deal chevy been useing them in the sbc and bbc for many years .dry sump pumps use gears and gerotor for vaccum and some use just gerotor pump if you think it,s a must have for a bbc they sell wet sump oil pumps for the bbc .stoven i would say for just a driver you should not need a hv oil pump for your ford 460 they can add to cam gear wear the dist turns the oil pump shaft and that is driven by the cam dist gear

Originally Posted by stovens

Paul while your on the oil pump here, my engine rebuilder put in a mellings high volume oil pump on my long block rebuild. I've heard a million thought pro and con on these and wondered your opinion on my mild build, weekend cruiser 460 with DOVE-C heads? Have heard they can where the distributer gear down from one guy, never heard that before, esp, since it drives the pump with a shaft!

We almost always install HV pumps in our builds. Unless we are searching for evey last iota of horsepower the HV pump has its benefits.

Generally, an M84 (standard volume) can support big hp without issue depening on the build. Whether or not I would use a standard volume pump or an HV pump really depends on a lot more information than what you have provided, such as bearing clearances and engine application, among other things. For example, I might have selected a standard volume pump in a build such as yours, but if the engine was going to be run in the Silver State Challenge or in a jet boat at 5000 rpm sustained I'd definitely go with the HV pump.

Oil pump selection can depend on so many factors. I almost always go with an HV pump since they pump no more oil through the engine than a standard volume pump but have the ability to send more oil if & when needed. In other words, oil pressure is oil pressure regardless of pump size (HV or Std) since only so much oil can be sent through the engine and the rest is simply bypassed right back to the inlet side of the M84 series pumps. If you are running your engine hard and the oil thins significantly, the HV will have the ability to keep pressure up where the standard volume pump starts showing its limits. This can be a real importatnt benefit but again one that you will not likely encounter in your particular engine. Even so, the HV pump can be a piece of mind over any concern with having "excess oil pump." An M84 (non-HV) in a street/strip, daily driver/occasional strip car with a 500 hp engine should be adequate....still not my personal choice but would be plenty adequate and I have no problem with your engine buildiner selecting an HV pump in and of itself.

Assuming that the STD volume pump shows 65 psi typical and the HV pump shows 65 psi typical, any increase of distributor gear wear in the 429/460 engines is immeasurable. Distributor drive load is whate it is with either pump.

If you are shearing pins or chewing up gears in your Ford dizzy, it is MUCH more likely due to improper distributor thrust clearance than anything else in the world. Not likely thick oil, oil pump loading, etc. like many people seem to think, meaning that while reducing drive load may alleviate the problem, the culprit of the problem probably has not been addressed (but should be).

There is a distributor shaft end play spec and an installed clearance spec (between the bottom of the dizzy gear and the block's dizzy gear thrust boss, which is the pad that the dizzy gear rides on once the distributor is installed). Few people understand Ford's reasoning behind the obscure specification and therefore dismiss it.

The reason for these spec is because as the distributor is turned by the cam gear, it is thrust downward against the dizzy's thrust boss in the block. If the shaft end play and boss clearance are out of spec (too much boss clearance/not enough end play), the dizzy gear does not ride on the boss but instead is floating in mid air all the while being thrust downward by the turning of the gear.

Eventually, the dizzy gear roll pin shears downward (and/or you gears get prematurely chewed up) because the spec's were not set by properly measuring/installing the dizzy gear and/or shimming the underside of the dizzy gear to take up the slack between the boss and gear. Here is the spec, please read:




To say that the Ford engines randomly shear pins rotationally and HV pumps chew gears are fallacies which are assumed by those that are not familiar with the detailed workings and necessary specifications of these engines. Their fix is usually to drill oversize and put in a bigger pin though the gear. The joke about such an approach is that this is a band-aid fix that may or may not end the pin shearing, because more than likely the root of the problem has not been corrected.

Here is a picture of the dizzy gear thrust boss in the block:



If you look in the mirror's reflection in the above photo, you will see just the lightest wear (from the bottom of the dizzy gear) against the top of the boss. This is exactly how the wear pattern should look. If you have more wear, the block gets chewed up; if you have NO wear, the gear is floating and you are chewing gears or shearing pins.

Paul

P.s.: For a good 429/460 distributor gear oiling mod, go to the High Flow Dynamics Technical Pages

As always, thanks Paul. I learn a ton from every one of your posts. I'm fine with the hv oil pump, but hate it when someone says something that starts those feeling of doubt in the back of my head! Also great pictures and info sites. I'll measure the distrib gear distance tomorrow.

Originally Posted by stovens

I'll measure the distrib gear distance tomorrow.

General rule of thumb when assembling an engine is to install the camshaft first. I feel that with the 429/460, the very first component to be installed (temporarily) is the distributor...mount it into the bare block as though you are permanently installing it, then simply grab the distributor shaft at the front to the engine and move it up and down and make sure there is adequate shaft end-play for the engine block into which it is being installed, that the distributor gear is not floating too high above the thrust surface, etc. Adjust distibutor gear location on the shaft if necessary.

Then, remove the distributor and begin engine assembly.

Paul