Thread: Wanting to give my 460 some pep!!

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Shweeet!! thank you very much for the input!!
I will definitly start with hydraulic roller cams and
definitly be on the look out for some Dove-c heads.

Once again,thank you guys for your input and eventually
when i get her all put together, i'll let you know how she runs

I disagree with the need for a roller cam. A good flat tappet cam will outlast cheap rollers any day. If you want good mid-range to high-range rpm power, start with a good single plane intake. The single plane will require a bigger accelerator pump shot, so you'll have to adjust the carb. Better yet go to a 750-850cfm carb. Headers next. A mild cam (what we used to call a 3/4 race cam) will really wake up the intake and exhaust. Make sure you have a nice hot spark, either a late model electronic or MSD. You can make a lot more power with these items before you have to spend money on heads and roller cams.

Originally Posted by moparfever

I disagree with the need for a roller cam. A good flat tappet cam will outlast cheap rollers any day.

You didn't really read WHY a couple of us recommended a roller camshaft

Originally Posted by IC2

You didn't really read WHY a couple of us recommended a roller camshaft

Actually I did. Todays oil is just fine. Roller tappets weren't designed for better wear characteristics, they came about due to the need to follow steeper profiles. With advances in cam profiling flat tappets now enjoy pretty fast opening ramps. Think about how much force bears down on the tappets. Now compare how much contact area bears all that force is on rollers vs. flat tappets. Rollers have very little area bearling the load. Honestly, with today's oil I'ld expect a good flat tappet cam to last >100,000 miles, especially if he keeps the spring pressure in line with a street engine that won't be hitting 7000rpm. Also don't forget that materials and quality control on cams and lifters are considerably better than yesteryear.

Now for the single plane intakes. Yeah, conventional wisdom does say it's not as streetable as a dual plane, but real experience says something different. As a matter of fact, that "wisdom" probably comes from those small block folks. A big block generates a great signal to the carb at the beginning of each stroke due to the large cylinder cross-section. I've been using single planes on the street many years and never found them to be even slightly non-streetable, and they kick butt!

Originally Posted by moparfever

Actually I did. Todays oil is just fine. Roller tappets weren't designed for better wear characteristics, they came about due to the need to follow steeper profiles. With advances in cam profiling flat tappets now enjoy pretty fast opening ramps. Think about how much force bears down on the tappets. Now compare how much contact area bears all that force is on rollers vs. flat tappets. Rollers have very little area bearling the load. Honestly, with today's oil I'ld expect a good flat tappet cam to last >100,000 miles, especially if he keeps the spring pressure in line with a street engine that won't be hitting 7000rpm. Also don't forget that materials and quality control on cams and lifters are considerably better than yesteryear.

no the oil is not better it has more detergent in the oil. so the oil is not better now? a roller cam can and will go for 300.000 miles on junk oil will a flat lifter cam ? lifters and cam cores are not better then older iron cores put the zinc back in the oil then i may think about more flat lifter cams every thing gets roller cams but the older stuff i build and i send the old core in for a regind for stock use . and then we use hi zinc oil but thats just how i build them

Originally Posted by moparfever

Todays oil is just fine.

No, today's oil is not just fine. It is missing the extreme pressure lubricants that it used to have. They were removed because most motors these days are roller tappets and rollers do not require the zinc and phosphorus. Also, those chemicals had a tendency to plug up catalytic converters, creating warranty claims for the dealerships, so the car makers leaned on the oil companies to remove the chemicals. As soon as that happened, we began seeing a slew of flat tappet motors pooch the cam and lifters. You cannot run an off-the-shelf motor oil in your flat tappet cam motor without some kind of extreme pressure lubricant additive to the engine oil and even then you have to have good kharma for it to work.

Originally Posted by moparfever

Think about how much force bears down on the tappets. Now compare how much contact area bears all that force is on rollers vs. flat tappets. Rollers have very little area bearling the load.

I'm gettin' the idea that you're saying all this because you read it somewhere or some galoot down at the Sonic Drive In told you this. You have obviously not taken much time to look at flat tappet cams and study their operation. There is only a pencil point of contact at the lobe/lifter interface on a flat tappet and pressure can easily reach 250,000 lbs per square inch.

Originally Posted by moparfever

Now for the single plane intakes. Yeah, conventional wisdom does say it's not as streetable as a dual plane, but real experience says something different. As a matter of fact, that "wisdom" probably comes from those small block folks. A big block generates a great signal to the carb at the beginning of each stroke due to the large cylinder cross-section. I've been using single planes on the street many years and never found them to be even slightly non-streetable, and they kick butt!

It's all about making power under curve. If you are applying more power to the tires from idle to 4000 rpm's and less power to the tires from 4000 to 5500, guess what, you're going to be faster than the guy in the other lane who makes less power idle to 4000 and more power 4000 to 5500.

I have no idea what you're saying when you say "large cylinder cross section". Would you please translate it into English so the rest of us can make heads or tails out of it.

I'm glad that Pat and Tech stayed up late to do the camshaft wear/oil part of the response. And I didn't get into the intake part either - thanks guys - my two typing fingers were tired.

Originally Posted by techinspector1

No, today's oil is not just fine. It is missing the extreme pressure lubricants that it used to have. They were removed because most motors these days are roller tappets and rollers do not require the zinc and phosphorus. Also, those chemicals had a tendency to plug up catalytic converters, creating warranty claims for the dealerships, so the car makers leaned on the oil companies to remove the chemicals. As soon as that happened, we began seeing a slew of flat tappet motors pooch the cam and lifters. You cannot run an off-the-shelf motor oil in your flat tappet cam motor without some kind of extreme pressure lubricant additive to the engine oil and even then you have to have good kharma for it to work.



I'm gettin' the idea that you're saying all this because you read it somewhere or some galoot down at the Sonic Drive In told you this. You have obviously not taken much time to look at flat tappet cams and study their operation. There is only a pencil point of contact at the lobe/lifter interface on a flat tappet and pressure can easily reach 250,000 lbs per square inch.



It's all about making power under curve. If you are applying more power to the tires from idle to 4000 rpm's and less power to the tires from 4000 to 5500, guess what, you're going to be faster than the guy in the other lane who makes less power idle to 4000 and more power 4000 to 5500.

I have no idea what you're saying when you say "large cylinder cross section". Would you please translate it into English so the rest of us can make heads or tails out of it.

Well if the oil's not fine then all of my 4 vehicles should have worn out cams by now, but they don't. I get to look at my BMW's cam regularly as it's a solid lifter motor and needs the valves adjusted.

No, it's not something I heard at Sonic. I don't work that way. Really, I'm 52 years old and have been doing everyhting on my cars since I was 15. You don't have to insult me. Yes, at any given moment there is only a small contact point on a flat tappet, but as you know that contact point rotates acting in a similar fashion to a ball bearing and also distributes that wear over a larger area. Sorry for not getting into details. Really, as many old engines as I've torn apart I've rarely seen enough wear on a flat tappet cam to give me much concern.

Okay, power under the curve. Did you read that in a book somewhere? Nobody races from idle. Not with either automatics or standards. A single plane can give plenty of power starting at a reasonable rpm. Now take a look at these numbers. Note test 3, Victor manifold:
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArt...st07142002.php
Do you really think with 450 ft-lbs of torque at 2500rpm you'ld be down to unusable at 1500rpms, which is really where most cars begin using power?

Now on the cylinder cross-section. It's just another way of saying big-block. If you look at how much air gets sucked through the carb during the initial 30 degrees of crank rotation after tdc, a big block sucks considerably more volume than a small block due to the larger cross-section of the cylinder, hence a faster signal to the carb. Of course it's more complicated than that, and takes into account runner volume as well, but in my real-life experience, a single plane works great on big blocks on the street. You do what you want, everybody has an opinion and everyone goes their own way.

FIRST OF ALL, MY APOLOGIES TO THE OP FOR HAVING TO SUFFER THIS BANTER BETWEEN TWO OLD GUYS.....

Originally Posted by moparfever

No, it's not something I heard at Sonic. I don't work that way. Really, I'm 52 years old and have been doing everyhting on my cars since I was 15. You don't have to insult me.

Sorry, I get a little emotional sometimes.

Originally Posted by moparfever

Okay, power under the curve. Did you read that in a book somewhere?

Now, you're trying to insult me. All knowledge is aquired one of three ways, either it is heard or it is read or it is figured out to a conclusion by the person himself. It is my conclusion from having hot rodded one thing or another and been around others of the same ilk for over 50 years, that if you can apply more power over a longer period of time with one manifold than you can with another type of manifold, you will be quicker and/or make more power. I appreciate your example, but that is only one example. I have seen, in dozens of cases over the years, that a car will be faster after changing from a single plane to a dual plane intake. It all depends on the application. On a circle track car, a dual plane will slow the car down because the rpm operating range is maybe 4000 to 8500. On a street car, you may make a little more power because the operating range is more like idle to 5500. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by moparfever

Nobody races from idle. Not with either automatics or standards. A single plane can give plenty of power starting at a reasonable rpm.

I'm not talking about a racing motor only. I'm talking all applications of internal combustion engines. Your statement "A single plane can give plenty of power starting at a reasonable rpm" is true, of course. But the question is....Could the car be faster or the engine make more power with a different manifold in the particular power range where the motor will be operated in this particular application?

Originally Posted by moparfever

Do you really think with 450 ft-lbs of torque at 2500rpm you'ld be down to unusable at 1500rpms, which is really where most cars begin using power?

Probably not, but this is just one example where you are using a particular set of circumstances to make your point. There are other examples from my past that indicate that in a particular application, a dual plane intake would make more power under curve in the range where it is used and be a better choice. This is my experience talking and I don't immediately have a graph or curve to display, but given a little time, I will come up with visual evidence.

Originally Posted by moparfever

Now on the cylinder cross-section. It's just another way of saying big-block. If you look at how much air gets sucked through the carb during the initial 30 degrees of crank rotation after tdc

Ummmm, yeah.....not much really. The intake valve is barely beginning to open. It will be about another 75 or so degrees of crank rotation before the intake is fully open and it will be open for another 105 degrees or so after that, depending on cam timing of course.

Originally Posted by moparfever

a big block sucks considerably more volume than a small block due to the larger cross-section of the cylinder, hence a faster signal to the carb. Of course it's more complicated than that, and takes into account runner volume as well

Yeah, you bet it takes runner volume into account. The relationship of cylinder volume to intake runner volume is very closely defined, no matter whether it is a tiny little small block or a behemoth 800 cubic inch motor. The smaller the runner is for a given cubic inch motor, the better the throttle response at low rpm's and the sooner the manifold will stall. The larger the runner, the worse the throttle response and the more soggy low end operation will be. That's just my point. For the manifold displacement that the piston sees, dual plane manifolds have roughly half the displacement of a single plane manifold, so they generally will operate better on a street motor where rpm's are limited. I am not so hard-headed as to deny you that there are some applications where a single plane will work better, so long as you will concede that there are some applications where a dual plane will work better.

Originally Posted by moparfever

but in my real-life experience, a single plane works great on big blocks on the street. You do what you want, everybody has an opinion and everyone goes their own way.

Yeah, well in my real-life experience, a dual plane works great on big blocks on the street.

Stalemate, end of game.

When you make that statement about flat tappet vs roller cams you insert the word "cheap" in there. Not sure where you find a "cheap" roller cam, but if you are comparing apples to apples, a roller cam is far superior to any flat tappet cam, hands down. This has become even more important with the reduction the oil companies are making in all the good additives that kept flat tappet cams and lifters alive in the past. Even the car manufacturers are realizing this and is the reason so many new motors come stock with roller cams.

I also question your advice about a single plane intake. He wants this engine to have a little more zip on the street, and common wisdom is that single planes are great for drag strip use, but fall on their face in daily stop and go driving.

Don

First thing I'd be finding out is what the gear ratio in the diff is. If you change cams, you will need to change gears anyway. If you determine that the truck has, for instance, a 3.00 gear and you change to a 3.89 gear, you might find that you have no need to do any work to the motor and that the additional performance from the gear change will satisfy your needs.

Also, don't be too quick to pull the trigger on those early heads without doing your homework. The factory used smaller chambers in those days, resulting in higher static compression ratios that could be supported by the high octane gasoline that was available on every corner. That isn't the case anymore, so we have to build the motors to operate on the available fuels. Using the early heads with a 22cc piston would yield 9.9:1 static compression ratio and could be run on premium pump gas or E85 with the right camshaft and a good tight squish. Heads produced 1973 or later (such as D3VE) will have larger chambers so that you could run a flat-top piston for 9.7:1 static compression ratio and again, could work well on pump gas with the right cam and squish. Don't expect too much from any combination you put together though, if you don't use the right gearset in the differential.

The key to good performance on most any motor is to open up the intake and exhaust so that the motor can breathe. This means, on a street or street/strip motor, 850 carb on a Edelbrock RPM or Weiand Stealth intake manifold and long-tube, equal-length tuned headers. Don't waste your money on shorty headers. They're not much better than stock OEM cast iron exhaust manifolds.

I would take tech's advice and add a good set of headers and go from there.

Originally Posted by NTFDAY

I would take tech's advice and add a good set of headers and go from there.

Ken added this before I edited my post with more info. Thanks buddy.