Thread: Do you know your 410s?

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Does anybody know anything about the Mercury 410 used in the 66-67 era? I need some help here. I have an FE 410, and I would like to know if it would be worth boring it 60 or 80 over providing a sonic check approves. I was thinking about making it into a 428 if possible. Anyway, does anybody know the stock HP of these things. I don't know too much about these engines, but I am willing to put some time, effort, and money into it. Any suggestions on what to do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I'm in the process of rebuilding my 390 and making a 422 out of it...(bored 60 over)
a 410 is basicly a 390 block and a 428 cranck...
basic block bore of a 390-410 is 4.05 and a 428 has a 4.13 bore...
I've been able to go safely to 4.11 but not much further than that is advised.

the only major difference is the wristpin position in the pistons (higher in a 410), otherwise you should treat the block as a 390, wich means you certainly will have to check for wallthickness if you want to go to extremes with boring it!
only some small part of 390's have really thick walls, wich allow for this large kind of overbore (some FT blocks for example)

410's original specs are:
330 HP @ 4600 rpm
444 lbs/ft @ 2800 rpm
with autolite 4100 4v carb.

the heads could be a good place to find some power (besides the intended overbore)...428CJ heads will fit nicely, but have larger valve openings and better flow than the stock heads. (edelbrocks are a defenite gain, but they'll cost you!)
Switch the rockers from a 1.73 ratio to the 1.76 and you have a little bit more lift also...(maybe combined with a mild performance cam)

anything else?

good luck!

ow, almost forgot;
keep your cranck and flyweel together, your 410 is externally balanced, like the 428, this in opposite to the other FE blocks, wich are internally balanced.

Thanks Tommie. Your help is greatly appreciated. Since the 410 is so rare, being externally balanced and only made between 66 and 67, I think I might just keep it at a 410. However, any HP booster ideas, such as the edelbrock heads and the performance cam will be put into condideration. I would like the maximum HP out of this engine, and yet let it remain a 410 if at all possible. Any ideas on what to do, and how much HP I can get from it? I would also like to put the engine into a smaller car. The park lane I pulled it from was a moster. Probably about the same length as my extended cab long box pickup. Any Ideas on this would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks Mike

well, let's start with saying that I'm building my first engine too...

that said, I think you're in the right forum here, because I also had some tech-questions wich were all answered thoroughly and quickly here...and probably will have some more...

now to the max HP...
I've seen questions like that very often here and as you might expect, it is very hard to guestimate a HP result, before even knowing what components you're going to use.
I'm only starting putting mine together, having collected, matched and machined all the parts and I still don't know what power it will yield when ready...guestimate is somewhere between 450 and 550...but that's still a guess.

Since you already starting off with a 410, you're a small bit ahead of me with my 390 (20 cubes , duh...and some parts)...from what I understand, a 30 overbore is a safe and often practiced refreshing of the main block. (becoming a 416, how nice!)

Pistons is something for you too look into, cause i believe you're engine ran a 10,5 to 1 comp. ratio and while they're offering quite some replacement pistons for this block, I believe these are for truck use mainly (yielding only 8 to 1 cr), so find some that give you at least the same ratio or even higher if possible (what gas?Mild or agressive cam?)

Besides the edelbrock performer heads, you've got the edelbrock performer intake (or like I have , a weiand), plenty of those you can find on ebay...if you decide to go this way, you'll have a lot of weightloss on your engine programm, because it's all aluminium!

I used the intake gaskets to do some portmatching on both the heads and the intake...simply using a small dremeltool...this won't cost you much (only time spend) but will give some gain in HP, how much is unsure, but hey, it didn't cost anything!(but don't go too far...)

A nice thing also; shorty headers...these flow much better than the stock exhaust manifolds. But they have to fit your car... I found some for my T-bird at FordPowerTrain, maybe they have some for your application too?

With cam and lifters I think the safest way is to order them as a package, something like Comp.Cam or equal, keep in mind that comp.ratio and driveability are some issues you should considder, while making a decission on this...(street use, like me, I shouldn't go too wild...)

ignition, still using the stock singlepoint ditrib.? Look for a dualpoint conversion-kit at the least. Already dualpoint, leave it there! Completely computerised, single cylinder monitored sytems are possible, but hey, we're not in the F1 business, are we?

when keeping it below 6000 rpm, your stock rods probably will do fine. For higher speeds go for the H-beam (pricy!)
I would advise agianst it, because the large stroke restricts your engine in the high rpm range...it's more of a torquer, but a good one!

woops! 2 times is one too many!

before starting, this is something you defenitly should considder:

my main bulk of knowledge came from these books:

"big-block ford engines" by steve christ...
very good and detailed book on many howtodothis-questions, from engine removal, right along untill first start

"Ford performance" (revised), by pat ganahl, brought by s+a design...
from 289 smallblock to 460 bigblock, all ford...very interesting, especially the part about customizing the oilingsystem of your FE, all done with simple tools (the oiling seems to be the weak link in FE-family blocks)

"High performance ford engine parts interchange" by george reid, brought by s+a+ design...
again from 221 smallblock to 460 bigblock, all ford...uge collection of expainations about interchangeability of parts within engine families (you'll be amazed how much parts for FE's can be switched between engines)

"how to build max performance Ford v-8's on a budget" by george reid, brought by s+a design...
tons of knowledge on how to do it for a good price, not cheap, sane...

besides the tech-essentials, these books all have very good and interesting histories on ford's accomplishments in performance and racing...you'll probably become the local know-it-all on ford engine's if you read all that.
but remember, reading on how to do it right, just isn't like doing it yourself, I already bumped into that one! that's where this forum kicks in with great support and knowledge!

have fun!

and if you're already on the prowl for parts...

have a look at these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Edelb...QQcmdZViewItem

I'd overbore the block as little as possible. Also if the engine is complete date code correct....heads, block, intake etc...keep the original parts even if you go with the Edel heads and aftermarket intake etc.... What I mean by date code correct is that all the date codes jive within a certain timeframe of the engine being assembled. This way should you ever decide to sell the engine to upgrade or whatever you have all the original parts and can keep your aftermarket parts if you desire. The only advantage to the aluminum heads (besides porting, polishing etc..) is the weight savings. You can port your iron heads, install CJ size valves, new springs, guides, hardened seats... the works and still come out cheaper than a set of stock Edel heads. Plus you already have them. The Keith Craft stage 1 ported Edel heads go for $1600. By all means if the budget allows get some nice aluminum heads with a killer port job. My point is you can also do very well with the iron heads worked over and save some cash. Pistons for the 410 are pretty much off the shelf. Probe has some nice forged dish and flat tops that won't break the bank. They come in std and .030 only though. The less you overbore the block the more life (and rebuilds) you'll have later. As far as going to 4.13 std 428 most likely won't happen. As Tommie said .060-.080 max! That's with std 390 cyl wall cores and even the .080 might not happen coreshift and thickness permitting. You can check and see what cyl wall cores the block was cast with. Knock out the blocks freeze plugs. You should replace them anyway. See if a 17/64" drill bit shank fits snugly between the cyl wall cores. If so it has 390 wall cores. If a 13/64" drill bit shank fits snugly it has 428 wall cores. And the 4.13 bore will more than likely be possible. A sonic map is by far the best way to check thickness and coreshift but the "drill bit test" as it's known is a quick and easy way to see what cyl wall cores the block was cast with. You can convert the 64" bit sizes to suit your bits at home. This is just the standard measurement used as a comparison guide. Check the crank and see if it can be cleaned up with a polish or if it needs to be turned. I think your 410 came with C6AE-A or C rods. You can use these with a set of ARP rod bolts and have a good set of rods. Scat also sells a nice set of capscrew rods. So price and compare everything you do. You'll get the most for your money and a better build from it. It might be better to spend a little more on something new here and there if the price is close to rebuild/refurbish some of the old components.

JMO....

G.

Hello... some great tips & advise here sir... do read the books on Ford FE Tommie listed... excellent info... Steve Christ FE book 1 of the best out there very knowlagble fellow indeed.

Couple tricks on looking to see if block is a 428 core.. knock centre frost plug out of block.. on floor of block between clyn you will see cast into block the #'s 428
this is 100% proof + its a 428 core.
I have bored 390 & 410 blocks to 4.130 from 4.050... BUT not without a complete sonic test is performed on block.. called some of the FE masters..on min. bore thickness after boring the vote seemed to be .170 to .180 min wall thickness / street driven engines 450/500 BHP range.

Im building a 410 now , C6ME-A block , C7AE-B CJ rods , Probe forged pistons
flat top , Scat 9000 crank (very fair priced) & Probe pistons in stock fair priced also.
Cam i like to use is Isky's Mega 280 series... found it to be best overall street cam with Rhoads lifters... the dang things work. I've used this combo in Shelby GT 's Cobra kits , hot rods ,ect ect.
Heads i like are CJ iron with some time with the die grinder & if budget allows
Ed RPM alum heads are the chioice Sir also on the FE engine there weak spot is there bottom end oiling system
I like to match blocks main bearing feed holes to bearing shells, and also go on the high side on rod & main bearing clearances adding approx .001 ths over stock clearances.
Also use CJ or SCJ oil filter adapter & match fliow path to block.. see George Gessford Machine web site for FE oil mods very helpfull indeed ..easy to do tricks.
Also on iron CJ heads i like to use .090th oil restrictors in heads... i cut off the tips of Chevy SB pushrods & load them in feed holes there perfect @ .090 ID.
This trick helps keep oil down stairs were it needed & not flooding the valve train & lifter valley.
Oil pan i like to use is Kevko road race oil pan , low profile 7qt fair priced to boot..

Here's a tipical build sheet on FE428 street engine:
1-Block stripped & tanked & magnafluxed & sonic tested .170th min wall thickness
Main bearing saddle oil feed holes matched to bearings, oil filter pad on block feed holes matched to CJ oil filter adapter (see George Gessford site for details)

2-Block bores Sunnen honed to 4.130 380 grit stones used for plasma moly rings.
Speed-Pro forged pistons L2303NF fitted to bores @ .0025th piston to bore.
Speed-Pro moly file fit rings fitted to bores top ring .016th second ring .019th.
Piston deck clearance .006th with Fel-Pro head gasket .047th piston to cyln deck clearance.

3- Block decked .006th finish to suite Fel-Pro alum head gaskets , Edelbrock RPM alum. Heads used , ARP head & main stud kit installed in block .

4- New Clevite 77 cam bearings loaded & brass frost plugs & drain plugs installed.

5-Crankshaft Ford casting IU code CJ ground & polished on Norton grinder mains ground to 2.738 & rods ground to 2.428 on low limits .

Crankshaft end play is .006th ,Engine Works USA S.F.I. fluid damper
Used , bearings mains & rods are Clevite 77 series deburred & scotch brite polished.

6-Rods are 428 CJ high perf fully resized , new small end bushings installed forging lines removed from beams & rods shot peened ,Milodon
rod bolts installed. Rods resized on Sunnen power stroker, centre to centre held within .001.

7-Oil pump is Melling HV blueprinted M57-HV , ARP 4130 forged pump drive used
With ARP oil pump bolts , custom HV oil pump pick up installed.

8- Camshaft is Isky Mega series hyd. # 351281 lift is .565 , duration 232 @ .050 lift
108 lobe centre line, Rhoads vari duration & lift & anti pump up hyd lifters used.

9- Chain & gear set is Rollmaster billet steel full comp series .250 dia, seemless pins

10- Edlebrock RPM alum heads # 60069 72cc chambers 170cc intake runner ,125cc
Exhaust runner, intake valve dia. 2.090 exhaust dia. 1.660

11- Head gasket used is Fel-Pro # 1020 pre flattened SS combustion fire ring.

12- Rocker assemblies are Harland Sharp alum roller rockers 1.7:1 ratio with Ford
FE rocker stands & DSC custom rocker shafts , grade 8 rocker shaft bolts & washers
used..060th shims used on intake rocker arms to align roller rocker tips to centre of
intake valve tip (rocker arm set screw turned 1& ¾ turn clockwise from 0 lash= approx
.060 lifter plunge movement to set preload on Rhoads lifters) NOTE under no
circumstances remove low RPM ticking sound from this engine, the ticking you may
hear are the Rhoads lifters working this mild solid cam sound is 100% normal & will
fade as RPM climbs past 2500 RPM.

13-Intake is Edlebrock RPM range 1500 to 6500 RPM, Permatex copper RTV used
with aviation sealant used on intake & heads & block valley rails.

14- Engine is painted with VHT high heat gloss black & VHT high heat clear.

15- Flywheel is Hayes billet steel with Centre Force II clutch set up & Lakewood S.F.I. bellhouse.

16-Carb is Holley 750CFM by Quick Fuel USA fully recalibrated ,with secondary jet extentions ,power vavle protection ,5.5 power valve ,high flow needle & seat ,Nitro filled floats.

17- Ignition is MSD billet distributor fully adjustable, Mega-Fire 8.5mm wires reverse
Magnetic field, MSD 6-AL ignition amp system supplied ,spark plugs are Bosh
Platinum set @ .050th as per MSD spec for compression of engine.

Hope this helps........... best regards Daryl aka Dr,Dee