Thread: wiped lobes, new cam

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Well here it is upset and frustrated, couple of lobes got wiped, now have to rebuild the motor again, told I don't have to but I read it gets metal shavings all in the bearings and wears everything out alot faster, but I'm not gonna Fidel fart around I'm gonna do it right this time, I feel like I been lyed to by the people at the Moore machine shop, I would have to agree with some people on here and i read some books on cam specks and that cam does not seem bigg enough to even brake 400hp, but this time now i got a better grip on complementing everything in a engine
I already bought me a 445 stroker kit from coasthigh and I'm goin with one of howards grinds, just need a little help guys thanks

Still 11:2 compression
3.73 gears and a 2800 stall
I liked a lot of grinds howards had to offer
They go by the rattler series

1st, 281/289 227/235 548/548. 109
2nd 289/297 235/243 548/548 109
3rd. 297/305 243/251. 548/548. 109

Then one of howards originals
1st 289/289. 235/235. 548/548. 110

I would rather go through you guys for help because I honestly felt lied to by thise Moore machine shop, I don't know how 2 lobes got wiped I broke the cam in at 2000-2500 for 30 minutes, changed the oil drove it around and also I put the Lucas zinc additive in It as well, guess it was just a bad cam

Riley, I'm not going to comment on your cam choices but I'll offer a few comments on your problem. A recent article written by a reputable engine shop says that with a flat tappet cam it's not a question of IF it will fail, it's only a question of WHEN it will fail. While zinc/phosphorus (ZDDP) are critical to high point load surfaces, the level of ZDDP is even more critical. It's a common mistake that "If a little is good, more is better" when it comes to oils and additives. Too much ZDDP causes zinc and/or phosphorus to precipitate out under high pressure loads, and actually deposit on the cam/lifter/bearing surfaces and then sluff off, leaving microscopic fissures behind.
For me the answer is simply don't run flat tappets if a conversion to roller lifters is an option. In the event that there's no choice but to run flat tappets then for me the only answer is to 1) run a top quality break in oil that has the proper formulation of ZDDP; 2) follow the break in instructions religiously; 3) drain the break in oil according to instructions, and replace with a top quality racing oil that contains the proper formulation of ZDDP; and 4) never run any type of additive that messes up the chemistry of the oil. The oil of choice for me would be Brad Penn's Racing Oil. Just my $0.02, and I'll step down from the soap box.

I'll echo what RSpears writes.
Sorry for the loss and another rebuild.. but put it behind you, make some different selections and move forward.
I ( or anyone actually!) cannot blame or comment on the machine shop and whatever they told you, I would hope they would at least offer to help in some way. Or have you not asked?

I'll bet you a donut that he didn't use the drip trays under the rocker arm stands--

I've posted this tutorial many, many times to help prevent exactly what has happened here. Fellows, flat tappet cams are technology from the last century that has been relegated to use only as a concourse rebuild, where everything must remain stock in the motor, or in racing venues that require a flat tappet cam. Anyone building a street motor for their hot rod these days simply cannot afford to putz around with flat tappets.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

Riley, you said you liked the characteristics of the motor with the Comp cam, so don't change to different characteristics on the cam that you will use next. You've already told us that the brakes are soft, so don't use more cam than you have now. Use the same or very close to the same cam timing with a retro-fit Howards CL250705-10 hydraulic roller cam and lifter kit....
Howards Cams CL250705-10 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Advertised duration 272/278
0.050" duration 219/225
Valve lift 0.525"/0.525"
Intake centerline 106
Exhaust centerline 114
Lobe separation angle 110
Use Howards 98611-K312 spring, retainer and lock kit together with adjustable pushrods to set the preload.
Crower Adjustable Pushrods 70000-16 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Or you could pop for adjustable rocker arms, but they're pretty pricey.

Here's preload explained by a contributor on another forum....
Preload = compressing the lifter plunger slightly to make up for wear and most importantly, take up the slack as the cam and lifter are racing DOWN the closing ramp. The cam literally pulls the "floor" out from under the lifter and as the valve spring is trying to follow, the preload allows the plunger to extend and take up the slack.

Remove all spark plugs to make the motor easy to turn over.....
Standing at the front of the motor, looking toward the rear of the motor, #1 cylinder will be on your left, the first one, just behind the radiator. The next one to the rear will be #2, then #3, then #4 will be the last one on the passenger's side, next to the firewall. Looking on the other side of the motor, the driver's side, the front cylinder will be #5, the next one to the rear will be #6, then #7, then #8 all the way to the rear against the firewall. Do whatever you have to do to get this all fixed in your mind. You can write the order on the fender wells or make a diagram on a large piece of paper and sit it against the carburetor. Knowing which cylinder is which cannot be over-stated.

Also, knowing which way the crankshaft turns (Clockwise as you face the engine from standing in front of it, looking towards the rear of the engine/vehicle) and which way the distributor rotor turns (Counter-Clockwise) cannot be over-stated. As you are standing at the water pump, the crankshaft turns clockwise, the same way the hands on an analog watch or clock turn. If you were to climb up on top of the motor from the front and look directly down on the distributor with the cap off, you would see the rotor turning clockwise also. See the animation here.....
Ford 352 360 390 406 427 428 V8 Engine Specs | Torque Specs - Cylinder Numbering - Firing Order - Distributor Rotation

Finding TDC on the compression stroke of cylinder #1..... With a socket, extension and a long ratchet attached to the bolt head that holds the harmonic damper onto the front of the crankshaft, turn the crank clockwise while you (or a friend) holds his thumb over the #1 spark plug hole. Using the starter for this operation WILL NOT WORK, it spins the crank too fast. When your friend feels air pressure beginning to build under his thumb, that means that both valves are closed and the piston is coming up on the compression stroke of #1 cylinder. Watch the harmonic damper and you will see the notch that is cut into the outer ring of the damper come up to the Zero or TDC line of the timing tab. The distributor rotor will also be coming up to terminal #1 of the distributor cap. When that notch is at TDC at the crank pulley, STOP. You are now at approximately top dead center on #1 cylinder. It doesn't have to be EXACTLY at top dead center to adjust the valves.

Make a mark on the harmonic damper ring so that you can reference this TDC position again later. Either use a yellow crayon like they use at the tire store or a piece of tape placed at that position or whatever your mind can come up with. Make the mark at the top of the harmonic damper inertia ring. We are going to refer to this position as NORTH, because if you got down on your knees and looked at the harmonic damper from straight on, like you were looking straight through the centerline of the crank, this would be the NORTH position.

Loosen both adjusting nuts on both adjustable pushrods on #1 cylinder until the rockers are loose on the rocker shaft. Have your friend hold his finger on the tip of one of the rocker arms so that he is pinching the rocker arm down onto the tip of the valve, holding it tightly. Now, you grasp the pushrod for the rocker he is holding down and jiggle the pushrod up and down while using two open end wrenches to slowly tighten down the adjusting nut until all the slack is removed and you cannot move the pushrod up or down any longer. Be delicate here. This is not a strong-armed operation. You are simply taking all the slack out of the pushrod. Now, make 1/2 turn more on the adjusting nut.....1/2 turn.....180 degrees......OK, that valve is done. Now, move over to the other valve on #1 cylinder and repeat the operation.

You may have heard that you can rotate the pushrod with your thumb and forefinger until the pushrod gets tight and use that for adjusting the valves. While that may work for someone who builds motors day in and day out for a living, it may not work for someone who has no way of knowing how much resistance they should be feeling. Jiggling the pushrod up and down is BULLETPROOF and can be done successfully by even a first-time builder.

Now, you have both valves adjusted on #1 cylinder. With the socket and ratchet on the harmonic damper retaining bolt head at the crank, turn the crankshaft 1/4 turn clockwise. That will mean that the mark you made on the damper ring will move clockwise from NORTH to EAST.....STOP. Make another mark on the damper ring at the straight-up position. Now, you will have a mark at EAST and a mark at NORTH.

You have moved the crank 90 degrees and into the next cylinder's firing range. There are 720 degrees in a full cycle to fire all 8 cylinders, so turning the crank 90 degrees at a time will allow us to adjust the valves on all 8 cylinders with just 2 full turns of the crank. If you knew that an FE Ford's firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, then you would know that it is #5's turn to fire. Go to #5 and loosen both adjusting nuts, just like you did on #1. Have your buddy hold the rocker down against the valve stem while you jiggle the pushrod up and down to remove all play, all the while slowly turning the adjusting nut on the adjustable pushrod to remove the play. When all the play is removed, tighten the nut another 1/2 turn. Move on to the other valve on #5 and do the same.

Now, you have adjusted the valves on cylinders 1 and 5. Put the socket on the crank nut and turn the crank 1/4 turn to the right (clockwise, just like before). Place a mark at the top of the inertia ring like you did last time. This mark will be at NORTH. The mark you had at EAST will move to SOUTH and the one you had at NORTH will move to EAST. Following the firing order, we will now go to cylinder #4 and adjust both valves. Then we will move the crank 1/4 turn and make another mark and do cylinder #2. Then we will move another 1/4 turn (the crank has marks for each 1/4 turn now) and do cylinder #6. Then we will move the crank another 1/4 turn and do cylinder #3. Then we will move the crank another 1/4 turn and do cylinder #7. Then we will turn the crank another 1/4 turn and do cylinder #8.
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If preload is too much, the valves wont close.
If preload is too little, you will have lash at the valve, which causes noise, wear, and most importantly causes the little hyd lifter assembly clip to bear the pressure of the lifter plunger as it extends to take up the slop, not the pushrod taking the pressure as it should.

You didn't take my advice last time concerning the torque converter, perhaps you will this time......Use a 10", 2500 stall converter with the Howards cam that I recommended here..

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He didn't take any bodies advice---and seamingly all that activity of choosing parts, machine/balance assembly, dyno,install test, trip to drag strip, etc,etc was only 4 or 5 days??really???????

probably killed it on dyno
if it was dynoed

I am going to just add this note, After all the questions and concerns on zddp additive and oil I called the cam manufacturer I used which was Isky, they where simple, no break in oil (not even Bradd Penns break in oil) only use Bradd Penn oil period, as Roger said they told me you can't add additive as that unbalances the package the oil has. I agree if you can get a roller cam and can affordit do so, however from what Isky told me your ok with Penn oil but it must be a heavy viscosity as cam lobes are oiled by the oil fog in the valley (not directly oiled) and if a thin oil is used the oil film thickness is not suffecient to protect the lobes, they recommended 20/50. I have a sbc I have ran with solid lifters for 20 years and still runs awesome but I use the right oil, 10/40 was the thinnest oil I remember when working at a service station 30 years ago. Call Howards and see what they recommend it could be different than Isky, nobody knows more or hears more problems about this than the cam manufacturers I am sure, ask them.

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I'll bet you a donut that he didn't use the drip trays under the rocker arm stands--

Sorry you lost a donut I used the drip rails I out everything back in the motor that came out

I did read all of tech inspectors article of braking a camshaft in and still failed me but I like the point that yes the motor ran great it exceded my expectations, and I think what coulda been a culprit was the factory non adjustable rocker shaft maybe, and the numbers look good on that howards cam, and the real problem is budget with converting to roller cams but i said I'm gonna do it right this time though so I'm gonna do the roller cam this time

Originally Posted by riley1996

coulda been a culprit was the factory non adjustable rocker shaft maybe

With that cam and the non adjustable rockers, how did you adjust the valves?
Sometimes the cheap is expensive..

Riley,
My bad, but I didn't realize that this was the follow on to the "First 390 Build" thread. My recommendation to you is that you take time to generate a basic time line explaining the last stages of your assembly, break in, dyno runs, strip runs, and the miles that lead us up to you now saying "two wiped lobes." No disrespect, but you are suffering from a serious credibility gap, to the point that people are going to start ignoring your posts. Again, no disrespect, but a new guy started at the first of your "First 390 Build" thread, then continued right into this one there would be some serious head scratching, trying to make the time line fit. Just my $0.02, but if you want to be taken seriously you've got a bit of work to do.

I too smell a troll.......going from "help me pick out parts" to a completed, and then torn up motor in less than 3 weeks??

Riley, as far as the soft brakes, any cam that is more than stock will require more initial ignition timing. Zero your damper inertia ring and timing pointer with this tutorial....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...op_dead_center
then put 12-14 degrees of ignition lead in at the crank, although some fellows say they use up to 20 degrees at the crank on FE motors. You will have to reduce the amount of centrifugal advance so that you don't exceed the max timing for the motor (probably around 40 degrees total, initial and centrifugal).

If the motor kicks back against the starter with more ignition timing, cut the hot wire to the coil and install a momentary-off switch that can be mounted on or under the dash. Push the momentary-off switch with your left hand while you key the starter with your right hand. Without any juice to the plugs, the motor will wind up easily. Once the crank is spinning, let go of both switches and the motor will be idling.
http://www.partdeal.com/cole-hersee-..._ogaAmN-8P8HAQ

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Originally Posted by DennyW

You can't time a Ford Fe like you do a Chevy...hahaha.

Thanks Denny, that's why I went onto some FE forums and checked out what others are doing for ignition timing before I answered his questions.

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