Thread: Break in oil

Tweet

I'm finalizing my chassis build and need some opinions on break in oils:

The engine, a crate 5.0 SB Ford, GT40, roller engine but E303 camshaft, stock lifters, Crane 1.7 rockers and the Crane recommended springs and with a standard flow front sump Melling oil pump. Rotating assembly is as shipped from Ford.

Ford would use their recommended standard Motorcraft 5W-20 oil. No problem, I have some - but do they use any kind of friction modifier? After break in I will be changing to Mobil 1 (probably the 3rd change @ approx 1000 miles)

Got a hot cam in the engine?

Crower - and other mfgs. - recommend the GM additive for cam break-in.

In some aspects, break-in oil may be a moot point.
A lot of oil bottlers/manufacturers/packagers - take your choice of terms - are removing Zinc from their oil formula.

Zinc as I understand it is very good in sliding applications like you find in camshaft/lifter installations.
Not a problem for roller lifters, but the lack of Zinc has ruined more than a few flat tappet hydraulic cams.

A couple of things you can look for; if the can's label says something along the lines of improving smog, the Zinc - or most of it - is probably removed.

Compare an older oil bottle with a new one and see if the use codes are the same or similar.
SG, SF, etc.

I'm not sure where diesel oils are going, but right now they're a good substitute.
Diesel oil carries many of the same oil bottle codes we look for, for our hot rods and in fact I just changed to Pennzoil diesel, a 15-40W oil in my roadster.

I run Mobil 1 10-40 synthetic in my 5.4 liter Ford Supercrew and am happy with it.
Been thinking about going to the same for the 462" Buick engine in the roadster.

You probably wouldn't need the friction modifier with your roller engine, but for the flat tappet guys it's a help.

One thing that I can see helping is running a bigger engine with softer valve springs - but not softer than stock - and limiting rpm to 4800-5000 rpm.
With a 2400# car you don't have to spin em up very much on the street.

And like you, if you're running a small CID engine, run a roller cam.

Along those same lines I'm not a fan of 5W oils.
Buick lost quite a few engines a few years back when they went to 5W oil so as to improve CAFE. (Corporate Average Fuel Economy.)

Zinc is being pulled out of oils to improve Corporate Smog Levels.
It seems to be a contributor to a higher smog level.

Along those same lines, with the sensitive smog test machines they use nowadays, changing oil right before the test will help in passing the test.

Far as breaking in hot rod engines go, the last few years I've been using the oil that will be run in the engine right up front and have had no problems with the break-in.
If I start using synthetic oil in the engine, I'll probably do the break-in with a mineral oil than swap to the synthetic.

Your question will probably generate a lot of answers, but what I like to do - regardless of oil choice - is fire the engine, break in the cam, drain the oil.
Run the car 100 miles, change the oil & filter.
Run the car 500 miles, change oil & filter.
Then revert to your normal oil change schedule.

No matter how well you clean your engine during assembly there's going to be some crud floating through the engines oiling system that seems to only get flushed out during the oil change.

Originally Posted by DennyW

That oil is fine for break in. Friction is what makes everything seat in. If you friction proof it, you may never seat things in. You can't pick the break in miles. You just have to follow the break in procedures, and you will know when it's good. One sure sign up around the miles you said, is it is not using any oil, and it's not smoking. Once the rings seat in, you will feel as though the brakes have been released.

Denny,very well said.
I.M.O.,I would not add all synthetic this early.
We have dicussed this on other posts.
There are many varibles.
Finish on cylinder bores,cross-hatch patteren,ring material etc.
When I add synthetic I don't do it this early.
I would wait until about 3,000 that way you know for sure the rings are seated.I am assuming they are cast rings.
If they are moly,plasma moly, etc.
I would wait until 5,000 miles.

Jay, as usual, you are at the front of the knowledge curve. Ironically I was commenting on the 302 pressure thread about the same thing at apparently the same time. Just a couple of "clarifications" if I may.

In your pp4 I don't think you meant to say what it looks like it says about zinc "ruining" flat tappets. As is apparent in the previous statement, it protects flat tappets. Just didn't want confusion.

To expand on the emissions comments, it's the phosphorous component of the zinc primary additive that "contaminates" cat converters. It's not necessarily an initial polution measure problem, but rather long term degredation of the cat converter............manufacturers are on the hook for emissions performance for longer time/mileage accumulation than before.

As for using Mobil 1 for older, flat tappet engines, as long as they have a current C class API rating that may work, but if they are also SL rated they may at best be border line for sufficient zinc level. See comments in the other thread to save me some typing. Diesels are highly likely to employ cat converters down stream and when they do, qualifying diesel engine oils too won't help. Sadly we in the "old car" world will have to move to "specialty" oils........................I hate that because it will foster an environment for exploiting the uninformed.

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Jay, as usual, you are at the front of the knowledge curve. Ironically I was commenting on the 302 pressure thread about the same thing at apparently the same time. Just a couple of "clarifications" if I may.

In your pp4 I don't think you meant to say what it looks like it says about zinc "ruining" flat tappets. As is apparent in the previous statement, it protects flat tappets. Just didn't want confusion.

To expand on the emissions comments, it's the phosphorous component of the zinc primary additive that "contaminates" cat converters. It's not necessarily an initial polution measure problem, but rather long term degredation of the cat converter............manufacturers are on the hook for emissions performance for longer time/mileage accumulation than before.

As for using Mobil 1 for older, flat tappet engines, as long as they have a current C class API rating that may work, but if they are also SL rated they may at best be border line for sufficient zinc level. See comments in the other thread to save me some typing. Diesels are highly likely to employ cat converters down stream and when they do, qualifying diesel engine oils too won't help. Sadly we in the "old car" world will have to move to "specialty" oils........................I hate that because it will foster an environment for exploiting the uninformed.

Bob,I made a post a couple of weeks ago about the zinc additive.
Check -out www.joegibbsracingoil.com this should clear up anything and everything about zinc.
Click under oil bulletin's.
I see you have already found the site.

Guys, I want to thank you for the responses. What it all boils down to, ya'all have about the same ideas and opinions that I have used for many years - use what the manufacturer would on a new engine (this is a SBF crate motor) and that is Motorcraft oil 5W-20 (I'll be using their 5W-30, I made a mistake in my first post). My intent is to tune the engine and run it a few miles 100 to 300, dump it refill with Motorcraft 10W-30 and run another 200 to 500 miles change again but to Mobil 1 10W-30 or 40 and run that forever.

I've had excellant luck with the Mobil 1 after trying Castrol and Valvoline synthetic oil in my '01 F150SCab w/5.4 and my wife's Escape. With the Castrol, a quart would "disappear" in 1000 miles or so. This happened 3 times in both vehicles. No problem with the Valvoline. I finally read some engineering reviews and Mobil was about equal to Amsoil - Castrol wasn't even in the running. With the Mobil 1 @ 5000 miles it is always down just about a pint. I wont pay the ridiculous price for a Mobil 1 filter though - has to be a Motorcraft or Purolator.

As far as emissions - I really don't care - it's a street rod with a carb, no cat on the exhaust and an a warmer camshaft to make sure the emissions stay high.

Zinc is one of the heavy metal nasties that are purported to to pollute the atmoshere along with lead, mercury, copper, nickel and cadmium and a few others.

A couple of web sites describing the deleterious effects of this crap(reading them might cause brain shutdown and a put you in a state of suspended animation called "sleep" ) :

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/nvswcd/...heavymetal.htm

http://drake.marin.k12.ca.us/stuwork...ct%20main.html

We did some research at our Marina because we sell Volvo engined boats, and they specify a synthetic oil. The Volvo oil is very expensive, and hard to find when you need some, so we needed an alternative. The one we came up with was Mobil 1 because it was the closest to the Volvo in properties, and it available everywhere at a better price.

I have run it in my own cars, and the temp drops and the HP seems to rise, at least in seat of the pants feel.

JMO,

Don

We always used to run "mineral oil" for breakin. Just plain oil, no additives. Changed to regular oil at 500-1000 miles. I don't think it's available here any more.
Not to ruffle anyones feathers, but you're fooling yourself if you feel any power increases on synthetic, or any other oil. If there was that much friction in any engine that did or didn't go away with a different oil, it wouldn't run five minutes. A horsepower here and there, maybe, from better sealing of rings or something, but no great difference.

Originally Posted by R Pope

We always used to run "mineral oil" for breakin. Just plain oil, no additives. Changed to regular oil at 500-1000 miles. I don't think it's available here any more.
Not to ruffle anyones feathers, but you're fooling yourself if you feel any power increases on synthetic, or any other oil. If there was that much friction in any engine that did or didn't go away with a different oil, it wouldn't run five minutes. A horsepower here and there, maybe, from better sealing of rings or something, but no great difference.

If this were an engine that had been built for competition purposes - drag or circle track, instead of a factory clearanced crate motor I would not have asked the question but would have started with straight 20 or 30 weight oil, tuned it, dumped the oil, put in my "racing" oil and gone racing. This a street rod and is being built to meet my own desires for looks, performance and desires.

My preference for synthetic is the fact that I want to give my truck engine, (as well as any other that I own) every chance it has for a long life, and baby it at start up with, hopefully, a residual slick film on the rotating and reciprocating surfaces. I have also seen an approximate .5mpg and more local driving gas mileage and 1+ open road increase since changing to Mobil 1 - and that ain't seat of the pants. Power wise, it's still lacking, but until I can justify an F250/350 with a V10 or diesel, it's about as good as it will get.

I don't know, but as soon as I made the switch to synthetic in my '27 the temp dropped 20 degrees, and the throttle response was much crisper. I drove the car day in and day out, so I knew how it felt, and am sure it wasn't imagination.

Don

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Jay, as usual, you are at the front of the knowledge curve. Ironically I was commenting on the 302 pressure thread about the same thing at apparently the same time. Just a couple of "clarifications" if I may.

In your pp4 I don't think you meant to say what it looks like it says about zinc "ruining" flat tappets. As is apparent in the previous statement, it protects flat tappets. Just didn't want confusion.

To expand on the emissions comments, it's the phosphorous component of the zinc primary additive that "contaminates" cat converters. It's not necessarily an initial polution measure problem, but rather long term degredation of the cat converter............manufacturers are on the hook for emissions performance for longer time/mileage accumulation than before.

As for using Mobil 1 for older, flat tappet engines, as long as they have a current C class API rating that may work, but if they are also SL rated they may at best be border line for sufficient zinc level. See comments in the other thread to save me some typing. Diesels are highly likely to employ cat converters down stream and when they do, qualifying diesel engine oils too won't help. Sadly we in the "old car" world will have to move to "specialty" oils........................I hate that because it will foster an environment for exploiting the uninformed.

Thanks.
I corrected the statement -- dang, thought I proof-read it well....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A similar discussion on this is going on at the HAMB.
Nice part is the post author posted a long list of oils that did and did not contain Zinc.
Along with percentage amounts of Zinc on the Zinc containing oils.

Go here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=138386

Originally Posted by Irelands child

Guys, I want to thank you for the responses. What it all boils down to, ya'all have about the same ideas and opinions that I have used for many years - use what the manufacturer would on a new engine (this is a SBF crate motor) and that is Motorcraft oil 5W-20 (I'll be using their 5W-30, I made a mistake in my first post). My intent is to tune the engine and run it a few miles 100 to 300, dump it refill with Motorcraft 10W-30 and run another 200 to 500 miles change again but to Mobil 1 10W-30 or 40 and run that forever.

I've had excellant luck with the Mobil 1 after trying Castrol and Valvoline synthetic oil in my '01 F150SCab w/5.4 and my wife's Escape. With the Castrol, a quart would "disappear" in 1000 miles or so. This happened 3 times in both vehicles. No problem with the Valvoline. I finally read some engineering reviews and Mobil was about equal to Amsoil - Castrol wasn't even in the running. With the Mobil 1 @ 5000 miles it is always down just about a pint. I wont pay the ridiculous price for a Mobil 1 filter though - has to be a Motorcraft or Purolator.

As far as emissions - I really don't care - it's a street rod with a carb, no cat on the exhaust and an a warmer camshaft to make sure the emissions stay high.

Zinc is one of the heavy metal nasties that are purported to to pollute the atmoshere along with lead, mercury, copper, nickel and cadmium and a few others.

A couple of web sites describing the deleterious effects of this crap(reading them might cause brain shutdown and a put you in a state of suspended animation called "sleep" ) :

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/nvswcd/...heavymetal.htm

http://drake.marin.k12.ca.us/stuwork...ct%20main.html

I would not be so quick to sell out the Castrol oil.
The reason it disappears I.M.O. is that is slicker than the other oil's and finds away out.
We have found this to be ture on almost all the synthetic oil's we have run.
That is why we don't every run a straight synthetic.

Originally Posted by C9x

Thanks.
I corrected the statement -- dang, thought I proof-read it well....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A similar discussion on this is going on at the HAMB.
Nice part is the post author posted a long list of oils that did and did not contain Zinc.
Along with percentage amounts of Zinc on the Zinc containing oils.

Go here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=138386

I'm here for ya Jay!

I took a quick look at Notebooms list (didn't read the whole thread), and would just caution that it may not be accurate. I noticed he had Chevron Delo 400 15w40 listed as "NONE". That didn't look right, so I pulled up Chevron's data sheet online and it shows .148 weight % (Sept 06 printing), slightly higher than the Shell Rotella that seems to get most of the automotive sites heart's a pumpin'. Not trying to sell their product, just that I competed with them for so many years I'm pretty familiar with it. If the list is wrong for such a well known product it makes me suspicious of some of the others, plus things change, both ways. For those interested in what their current choice is, rather than relying on a second hand accounting, just go to the website of the manufacturer, pull up one of their data sheets, and verify it there............much more accurate.

BTW Jay, you going to visit your daughter and go to Carl's BBQ during SEMA week?

Originally Posted by DennyW

I run Castrol in the wifes car, and my motor cycle. Very good results. I use Havoline in my Merc engine. Stays clean as a whistle.

If you want some hands on experience from oil. I'll give you one. This is how ever a few years back. My previous brother-in- law had a Chevy pickup. He changed oil every 5,000 miles. He used the high dollar Mobile 1 oil. He was getting oil pressure errattic readings. He asked if I would take a look at it. I did. I pulled the valves covers. You have to remember now, he did a lot of starting and stopping, but did go on the road some times, which that may have been the reason, but I filled a McDonalds medium coke cup to the top from cleaning both heads around the valve train. It was like Goooy paste. It reminded me of the old Non Detergent oils, how they would build up. Except this had the gritty feel along with it. I had to pull the oil pan, and clean that, and the oil pump screen. He asked if he should switch oil, and I said no. All you will do is flush all that, and get troubles again. Soon after he traded it.

ps: From the ratings on their site.
Engine Oil
Castrol GTX
API* 5W-20 - Maximum Protection Against Viscosity and Thermal Breakdown

Product Data Sheet




Castrol SYNTEC
API* 5W-20 - Outperforms ALL Leading Motor Oils

Product Data Sheet




Castrol SYNTEC BLEND
API* 5W-20 - Added Protection for Frequent Short Trips

Denny,if your former brother in law had a lot of starting and stoping maybe the 5,000 was more like 7,500. In other words we could go by an hour meter instead of miles.

Originally Posted by erik erikson

I would not be so quick to sell out the Castrol oil.
The reason it disappears I.M.O. is that is slicker than the other oil's and finds away out.
We have found this to be ture on almost all the synthetic oil's we have run.
That is why we don't every run a straight synthetic.

Erik
Unless it's going out the tail pipe - I doubt it. This 5.4 and my earlier 4.6's are the cleanest engines I've ever had - NO leaks. Ever. If, based on my experience and IMHO, I want to change brands, it wont be back to Castrol .