Thread: Fixing a strange engine noise and then some

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yes but how hard is it to check the pcv ? they do not allway s rattle . sounds like you have some lifters with to much pre load haging some valves open

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

yes but how hard is it to check the pcv ? they do not allway s rattle . sounds like you have some lifters with to much pre load haging some valves open

Pat - with these you take them down finger tight and just so that the tip roller contacts the valve stem and the pushrod is seated. You turn the bolt between 1/4 & 1 turn to reach the correct torque setting. This will give you the correct lifter
preload of .020" to .060". I'm between 1/3 of a turn and a little bit more and at 20 lb ft torque. And like I said a couple posts back, did a rough check and am at about .030 preload. This preload was done with the roller lifters at camshaft base circle - that is with both valve closed.

Thinking back, the carb has been "wrong" since I had a couple of major backfires (dist. was in 180 off - my dumb aw s**t) and it also started running poorly. Almost makes me wonder if something internally is cracked/broken, tho I had it apart, but only did a quick wipe down and float level check.

Tomorrow is another day

just throwing some thing out there. i setup and modified every rocker arm setup over the last 20+ years oem and the shaft stuff that cost more then some guys engines just trying to help. there not much in a afb / edlbrock that can go bad after a back fire but check for sticky step up power pistons and junk that may of back up in a air bleed .check base plate / gasket

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

just throwing some thing out there. i setup and modified every rocker arm setup over the last 20+ years oem and the shaft stuff that cost more then some guys engines just trying to help. there not much in a afb / edlbrock that can go bad after a back fire but check for sticky step up power pistons and junk that may of back up in a air bleed .check base plate / gasket

Pat - if I get to the point that I pull the heads, I'll go to at least the stud mounted rockers and have the pedestal mount part of the head forging machined off.

I found someones shaft mount rockers for SB Fords on the web - and you are right, more then I'll ever be able to afford.

That Edelbrock carb is simple though I have seen a couple that have had cracked bases/bodies for whatever reason. It comes off today and if OK, I'll install a kit. If not, I'll redo that cruddy looking $20 swap meet spare which is fine. Base gaskets are new (a new 1" phenolic spacer instead of an aluminum version was installed over the winter)

Edit:
Got the carb off. Not too bad tho some crud inside but as yet haven't seen any cracks tho it is still drying out from the gas I poured out . Did a further check on the PCV and it had some black crud, possibly carbon - hmmmm. My records show it was replaced winter 2010-2011, not this past winter like I said in an earlier post. Now been cleaned tho it did seem to work. The carb end as well as the PCV ends of the hose had gotten sloppy and may have been a vacuum leak. Fixed!! A kit is on its way and I'll go from there tho do need some carb cleaner as my old bucket of it turned to slime a few years back.

OK - got the carb done and back on - I used the Berryman carb and parts cleaner. It's a little puny compared to the old stuff, so is slow. Put the 1.7 rockers back on then went for a ride. Runs like a champ - buuuuuuttttttt, at low rpm/idle or chugging just after putting it in gear, still some rattles when the oil pressure dips just a bit. This leads me to believe that regardless of how much and how often I torque these rockers down, they will rattle. To me, sounds like I need more preload - except the only way to do that is to install shorter push rods - and that becomes a $100 or more special once I determine the length, and to do that, then I'm getting into $75 or more worth of gaskets and another XXXX dollars in a length check push rod. Additionally, it is a royal pain to pull the heads on that car with the engine setback. Sooooo with that babble, Crane makes this pedestal mount rocker arm and guide conversion kit - Crane Cams 36655-16 - Crane Rocker Arm Guideplate Conversion Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com - yeah, I know it's a band aid and yeah, I need different rockers but there's another problem locally - lack of a decent automotive machine shop(that is someone you can actually discuss what is wanted). One question though - they say to use with Crane rockers. Is that just their way of saying that they "prefer" you to use Crane parts - the way I see it - a 3/8 stud rocker is just like someone else's. Plus I think I have located a new set of Harland Sharp Originals locally and reasonably priced.

This engine is driving me batty, to say the least -

Sounds like you made up your mind but, you can borrow my adjustable push rods and tester springs...

Why are you after more pre-load? What am I missing? Did you not just set pre-load to spec?

If you are getting valve train noise with low oil pressure-----you may have lifters that has the oil groove band coming out of the lifter bore , too loose a fit of lifters to tappet bore, oil restrictors somewhere, wrong matching (mismatched) pushrod to rocker or tappet radius---

in other words---if you get noise when oil pressure is low---you got to fix cause of low oil pressure----the lifters will still see the exact same pressure no matter what the pushrod length is

Originally Posted by 34_40

Sounds like you made up your mind but, you can borrow my adjustable push rods and tester springs...

Why are you after more pre-load? What am I missing? Did you not just set pre-load to spec?

I'm at the 'bitter end' of the minimum of ~.020 (spec is .020-.060). Preload on these pedestal rockers is set by guess and by golly - you bolt the rockers in place, make sure the assembly being adjusted is on the cam base circle, then torque to 18-20 lb ft. If it takes a quarter to half turn after first contact to reach that torque figure, it's supposed to be 'in spec'. Now, this is conjecture - if the oil pressure dips a few psig, the lifters seem to lose their capability to stay pumped up. When that happens, clatter and the engine idle capability dies as well. With a cold engine, carb on high idle (1000 rpm or more, not a whisper of clatter. At 190(operating temp), 800 rpm idle, some clatter, drop it into gear, haul the engine down another 100 rpm or so ---- you get the picture. Now, pull the engine apart. replace the Fel-Pro 10112 .039 compressed thickness head gaskets with the 'recommended' Fel-Pro 9333Pt1, .047 compressed thickness - it will, I'm sure, get worse.

What I'm trying to do is get some adjustability in my valve system - and pedestal mounts aren't what I need

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

If you are getting valve train noise with low oil pressure-----you may have lifters that has the oil groove band coming out of the lifter bore , too loose a fit of lifters to tappet bore, oil restrictors somewhere, wrong matching (mismatched) pushrod to rocker or tappet radius---

in other words---if you get noise when oil pressure is low---you got to fix cause of low oil pressure----the lifters will still see the exact same pressure no matter what the pushrod length is

Jerry - wouldn't I hear the clatter all of the time? Normal oil press at regular idle speed is 40+ psig - at 2000, about 60. The only time it dips is like I said above - and the oil pump is operating slower.

As far as push rods, they are Ford Racing L605's, identical in length to the OEMs at 6.272 (both them and the OEMs actual measure at 6.252 and according to other Ford forums, correct), matched to Ford roller lifters, in a crate roller Ford engine running a Ford E303 camshaft which has not a heluva lot more lift the the stocker.

With this all said, three pages worth, mine appears to be louder then most, but others have had some level of this problem too.

i can tell you 3 years ago i look at a 66 fast back mustang guy must of had $60.000+ in it very nice car .it had a ford crate hyd roller engine with roller rockers it was in a shop they wanted me to hear it . it had some sound to the rockers arms.i told them to live with it or pull the engine and i could rework the valve train. but i told him at the end of the work it may not sound much better for the money .you are looking for more pre load you want a longer push rods.you can not go by what ford use in there crate engine less the deck and head gasket base circle on the cam roller lifters push rod cup is height is the same along with valve stem height . face of the head deck to height to pedestal height is the same of crate engine . i can get any size push rod you need if you want .010 or .020 more pre load add that to push rod over all. give me the magic number and i look up the push rod for you. i have them all on a min CD as i am a dealer for a custom push rod company

Originally Posted by IC2

I'm at the 'bitter end' of the minimum of ~.020 (spec is .020-.060). Preload on these pedestal rockers is set by guess and by golly - you bolt the rockers in place, make sure the assembly being adjusted is on the cam base circle, then torque to 18-20 lb ft. If it takes a quarter to half turn after first contact to reach that torque figure, it's supposed to be 'in spec'. you get the picture. Now, pull the engine apart. replace the Fel-Pro 10112 .039 compressed thickness head gaskets with the 'recommended' Fel-Pro 9333Pt1, .047 compressed thickness - it will, I'm sure, get worse.

What I'm trying to do is get some adjustability in my valve system - and pedestal mounts aren't what I need

I haven't kept up with this thread so thanks for the additional info. I also don't understand the head gaskets coming into play but no matter..

I will agree with Pat, you already know the length, just insert longer push rods, I'd go .020" 'cause that should get you close to the middle of "the spec". But, that's my opinion, fwiw - ymmv - imho - yada yada yada...

I'll be watching for a conclusion! Should I put on my cheerleader gear now?

Pat & Mike (now that sounds like a corny movie from the '50s)

I fully understand what you are saying but I'm not sure you understand what I am but I've been accused of that before

A pedestal rocker is like a shaft mounted rocker arm in that you really have only one way to adjust the valve action, hydraulic or mechanical, and that's to vary the length of the push rod either with different lengths or with an adjuster screw. A stud mounted rocker, you have an infinite adjustment capability (at least to the length of the stud) by simply adjusting the nut up or down. By doing the up/down adjustment you can adjust the preload on the lifter to whatever you want. That Crane mod kit that I referenced above will convert the pedestal rockers to a stud type and not confuse the issue with different lengths of push rods. It's not the best solution as it leaves me with only a 5/16 thread into the head even with a 3/8 stud rocker, but it is a reasonable one and with less time and money outlay.

Different length pushrods = This - which, if I had a valve job, different compressed thickness head gaskets, replace a valve for some reason could then 'force' me to remeasure and possibly have to get another pushrod. Heck, with my luck with that car lately, I could end up with 16 different length push rods.

Now, back to my original and, I guess second question, is there any reason that anyone can think of that Harland Sharp rockers wouldn't work instead of the Cranes?

At this point, if I can make the mod and someones rocker arms work, then I'll be able to drive the car a bit further then around the 'big' block (5 miles)

i know what you have you can only use a shorter or longer push rod . if you want more pre load you need a longer push rod OR sometimes cut the rocker pivot mount pedestals down or shim them up i done this to . if you go to adjustable kit you can use anyones rocker arm if there is room on the rocker stud for bigger body that may not be the same as a crane body . then when thats done do not think your going to use the crane push rod for this kit . as the roller tip is over .100+ bigger on the harlandsharps and your mid lift will be way off. what i been try to say is with a nonadjustable valve train you can not go by anyones else push rods less that engine is the same parts and machine to the same specs . on valve stems height i like to keep all 16 the same no more then .003- or .003+ . this is base off the deck of the head not spring cup as they can be way off

Originally Posted by IC2

Pat & Mike (now that sounds like a corny movie from the '50s)

I fully understand what you are saying but I'm not sure you understand what I am but I've been accused of that before

The Pat & Mike Show! We both know what system your using. And we both agree and maintain, use a londer pushrod to get your spec-ed pre-load.

Back "in the old days" when I was playing / racing with clevelands, we would shorten the mounts to the rockers to gain pre-load, or add shim stock as Pat mentions.

"IF" your certain you haven't achieved the required pre-load, then use the +.020" (or .030") pushrods, remember the kiss principle!

Originally Posted by 34_40

The Pat & Mike Show! We both know what system your using. And we both agree and maintain, use a londer pushrod to get your spec-ed pre-load.

Back "in the old days" when I was playing / racing with clevelands, we would shorten the mounts to the rockers to gain pre-load, or add shim stock as Pat mentions.

"IF" your certain you haven't achieved the required pre-load, then use the +.020" (or .030") pushrods, remember the kiss principle!

last one i shorten was a cleveland.