Thread: Last chance bucket list bucket/bobtail/modified/track-roadster

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Originally Posted by Zandoz

I'd like to avoid spacers/adapters if at all possible. Back in my VW days I had constant problems with them. Also, because my bolt pattern is the same as 20+ years of Mustangs, the adapters are premium priced...almost as much as the smoothies, and I'd still need wheels.

Plus there me be an appearance issue with spacers. Most are around 2" thick. My rear axle is already very wide...61.5" between wheel mounting surfaces. A lot of that will be taken up with the body tucked back between the wheels, but I suspect another 4" or so would be looking way too wide.

If I run across a set of wheels I really like and can afford, I'd consider the adapters...but they'd have to be special.

The conversion from 4-lug to 5-lug axles & brakes is not that tough, the parts are readily available and it will be a huge improvement to your project. Just Google Ford 4 lug to 5 lug conversion and you'll find a ton of information out there from the Mustang crowd - all of the Fox body Mustang's came with 4 lug axles, and swapping to 5 lug is one of the first things guys do. Lots of all in kits out there, too, but you can do it with salvaged parts and save some money if you take time to do some research.

Originally Posted by rspears

Welcome, and good luck with the project. One comment/suggestion, take a look at the tires you plan to run, and be sure that you can find them in 15's which are getting harder to find all the time. OEM's pushing to larger wheels, shorter sidewalls are changing the tire availability big time. I'd look at some bigger wheels, if I were you.

Just be glad you don't have 14's.

Originally Posted by rspears

The conversion from 4-lug to 5-lug axles & brakes is not that tough, the parts are readily available and it will be a huge improvement to your project. Just Google Ford 4 lug to 5 lug conversion and you'll find a ton of information out there from the Mustang crowd - all of the Fox body Mustang's came with 4 lug axles, and swapping to 5 lug is one of the first things guys do. Lots of all in kits out there, too, but you can do it with salvaged parts and save some money if you take time to do some research.

Those conversion kits are too expensive for my budget, but I'll have to look into doing the conversion with salvage parts.

Originally Posted by Alleycat

Just be glad you don't have 14's.

Yeah, I bet they are hard to come by these days. I remember having problems finding wide low profile 14" tires for a Le Mans I had...and that was 20+ years ago.

5-lug on the front and 4-lug on the rear will not be a problem. Carry a can of Fix-A-Flat with you, you won't have room to carry a spare anyway.

A full R&P unit tied to the straight axle (the only way you can use R&P with a straight axle and prevent bump steer) will look hinkey and cause the old guys to laugh at you. Uni-Steer makes a unit with only one tie rod that works great with early straight axle cars.
1928-1940 Street Rods - Ford - Rack & Pinions - Search By Product
A guy with a sharp mind could modify a conventional R&P into a single tie-rod, cross-steer unit to do the same thing.

The most popular tire size in the immediate future will likely be 16".

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

5-lug on the front and 4-lug on the rear will not be a problem. Carry a can of Fix-A-Flat with you, you won't have room to carry a spare anyway.

A full R&P unit tied to the straight axle (the only way you can use R&P with a straight axle and prevent bump steer) will look hinkey and cause the old guys to laugh at you. Uni-Steer makes a unit with only one tie rod that works great with early straight axle cars.
1928-1940 Street Rods - Ford - Rack & Pinions - Search By Product
A guy with a sharp mind could modify a conventional R&P into a single tie-rod, cross-steer unit to do the same thing.

The most popular tire size in the immediate future will likely be 16".

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I agree on the 4/5 lug issue. The only viable reason for changing over would be to enable a specific wheel style...and so far, other than finding more of the Lincoln wires or some other wire wheels, I don't see much chance of running across any must-have wheels that I can afford.

It's funny you mention not having a spare. I do have a spare Lincoln wire wheel, and the idea of doing a speedster style rear mounted spare frequently comes to mind.
1917-ford-model-t-speedster-12909.jpg

I will be chassis mounting the R&P. Yes, there will be bump steer, but with the correct positioning of the rack and the use of good steering damper(s) it can be minimized. The DIY Unisteer has been the backup plan all along.

Originally Posted by Zandoz

I agree on the 4/5 lug issue. The only viable reason for changing over would be to enable a specific wheel style...and so far, other than finding more of the Lincoln wires or some other wire wheels, I don't see much chance of running across any must-have wheels that I can afford.

It's funny you mention not having a spare. I do have a spare Lincoln wire wheel, and the idea of doing a speedster style rear mounted spare frequently comes to mind.
Attachment 63715

I will be chassis mounting the R&P. Yes, there will be bump steer, but with the correct positioning of the rack and the use of good steering damper(s) it can be minimized. The DIY Unisteer has been the backup plan all along.

With all due respect, I think you'll find that ANY bumpsteer will be unacceptable unless you enjoy punishment. Been there, done that. To me, the biggest part of enjoying a car that you build yourself is having all the parts work in concert with each other in a fashion described by the OEM's designs and that includes ZERO bumpsteer.

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Welcome Aboard Zandoz! Nice to see you here and I hope you enjoy your time with us.

The project sounds nice, it's clear that you've been doing the research/homework and identifying what you want / need.

That last pic of the speedster is very cool! As well as the lil red car!!! LOL..

I agree 100% on the bump steer. Designing for some "acceptable" level of bump steer is like your teenage daughter being a little bit pregnant. The Unisteer is a great product, but you can do a Vega box cross steer cheaper, and eliminate bumpsteer that way, too.

On your 4 lug/5 lug issue, lots of the speedsters in the mid to late teens had an option for TWO spares in that rear mount position. You could then carry one front, one rear and cover the bases. I still like the idea of having five lug all around, but it's not at all critical. With the size of the wheels & tires you're considering two spares might have you saying, "Does the butt look too big?"

Originally Posted by techinspector1

With all due respect, I think you'll find that ANY bumpsteer will be unacceptable unless you enjoy punishment. Been there, done that. To me, the biggest part of enjoying a car that you build yourself is having all the parts work in concert with each other in a fashion described by the OEM's designs and that includes ZERO bumpsteer.

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Originally Posted by rspears

I agree 100% on the bump steer. Designing for some "acceptable" level of bump steer is like your teenage daughter being a little bit pregnant. The Unisteer is a great product, but you can do a Vega box cross steer cheaper, and eliminate bumpsteer that way, too.

On your 4 lug/5 lug issue, lots of the speedsters in the mid to late teens had an option for TWO spares in that rear mount position. You could then carry one front, one rear and cover the bases. I still like the idea of having five lug all around, but it's not at all critical. With the size of the wheels & tires you're considering two spares might have you saying, "Does the butt look too big?"

To me, a minimal amount of dampened bump steer is like a car with understeer or oversteer...it's a trait that you learn to deal with. Very few if any production cars have ideal handling, and almost all require a learning curve to drive in less than ideal conditions. In this case I'm working with the guidance of a couple folks who combined have close to 2 decades of experience with R&P steering on solid axle cars...and myself quite a few years driving bump steering cars with insanely quick ratio steering and no dampers. Then there is the economics factor. This project is VERY low budget, and as much as possible I have to work with what I have...and I've had this R&P laying around since the mid 90s. If down the road it does not work out to my liking, I'll fall back to the DIY Unisteer configuration.

Originally Posted by 34_40

Welcome Aboard Zandoz! Nice to see you here and I hope you enjoy your time with us.

The project sounds nice, it's clear that you've been doing the research/homework and identifying what you want / need.

That last pic of the speedster is very cool! As well as the lil red car!!! LOL..

Thanks for the welcome! I love that speedster...that pic makes me want to try that configuration.

About the two spares conundrum:

It's not the dress that makes her ass look fat.

It's the fat.

Originally Posted by Zandoz

To me, a minimal amount of dampened bump steer is like a car with understeer or oversteer...it's a trait that you learn to deal with. Very few if any production cars have ideal handling, and almost all require a learning curve to drive in less than ideal conditions. In this case I'm working with the guidance of a couple folks who combined have close to 2 decades of experience with R&P steering on solid axle cars...and myself quite a few years driving bump steering cars with insanely quick ratio steering and no dampers. Then there is the economics factor. This project is VERY low budget, and as much as possible I have to work with what I have...and I've had this R&P laying around since the mid 90s. If down the road it does not work out to my liking, I'll fall back to the DIY Unisteer configuration.

Not to beat a dead horse, but bump steer is nothing like understeer or oversteer, which are both predictable and repeatable characteristics which an accomplished driver can compensate for with power and braking in the right combination. One never knows when the bump will occur, and the amount of impact to the steering is not something one can allow for or correct, because it will change again with the rebound. Now perhaps your two "experts" will guide you to mount the rack solid to the axle like Tech pointed out, and all is OK other than it looking funny. Doing a project on a low budget is a good thing, but compromising safety is not.

Best of luck with your project.

Originally Posted by rspears

Not to beat a dead horse, but bump steer is nothing like understeer or oversteer, which are both predictable and repeatable characteristics which an accomplished driver can compensate for with power and braking in the right combination. One never knows when the bump will occur, and the amount of impact to the steering is not something one can allow for or correct, because it will change again with the rebound. Now perhaps your two "experts" will guide you to mount the rack solid to the axle like Tech pointed out, and all is OK other than it looking funny. Doing a project on a low budget is a good thing, but compromising safety is not.

Best of luck with your project.

Nope, the cars they built are all frame mount R&Ps.

If this works, I've gotten my steering for nothing. If it does not work, it will cost me a pair of steering arms and a tie rod to go DIY Unisteer...much less than it would cost to start over with either a Vega or genuine Unisteer set up.

Just a bit of update...

Not much has been going on lately. The last few months have been really bad healthwise. Going out to watch the fireworks on the 4th was the first time I've been out for anything other than doctor appointments in quite a while.

Since then, the rear end has been opened up and verified in good condition. Next will be new seals and bearings...then cutting off the unneeded brackets. It's been a LOT of years since I've wielded an angle grinder, so cutting off those brackets has me a bit apprehensive. I'd hate to mess up those axle tubes.

Then there is the other HUGE dilemma...the frame. Almost from the beginning of this project, based on all the good recommendations I saw, I knew who I wanted to build my frame. I laid out my plans based on a custom frame of my design...then the builder I wanted stopped doing custom frames, and is only doing his standard frame. I scrapped all the plans I had, and started over around that standard configuration. I got to something I could live with, but wasn't what I originally had in mind, and was less handicap friendly than my original plan. The illustrations in my original post are of that compromise. A couple of weeks ago, I was ready to pull the trigger and order that compromise frame...then a friend told me of a relatively local shop that does custom frames. The shop is an impressive looking operation, but I know of noone who actually has one of their frames, and after living in this area for 13 years, I've never heard of them. Well, out of boredom, I decided to try and recreate the since lost original design, factoring in a lot of parts I did not have back then. The result is a design that is a lot closer to what I originally had in mind, including being more handicap friendly, but also a lot more complex. Now I don't know which way to go....A simple but less friendly design built by someone who's work is impeccable...or a more complex and friendly design built by someone who's work is an unknown commodity.