Thread: The timesaver coupe

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So we are FIVE weeks in on a 2 week interior job and we finally have some rugs but not much else. Man; how they stay in business is beyond me. The damn season will be over with by the time he is done!

[IMG]https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/13087374_1034204209983213_7287349168496337082_n.jpg?oh=b7116f8b5480cde0c1f60a4ce60b8273&oe=57AC3A19[/IMG

Jim, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but does your contract specify a completion date?

Anytime you enter an agreement to have work done (or when you preform work for others), it is always a good idea to have the details in writing. Here is a short list of things to include in an agreement;
A). Specify what the work to be performed will be (list the details)
B). Specify any materials that is to be used (list the manufacture's names and numbers whenever possible)
C). Specify a reasonable amount of time to complete the work (due date)
D). Specify what the complete and total cost will be, excluding any approved extras
E). Specify what qualifies as an approved extra (i.e., anything not listed in the agreement)
F). Specify the labor rate for extra work
G). Require all extras work be detailed on an Extra Work Form that lists time and materials required
H). Require all Extra Work Forms be signed and dated by both parties
I). Specify that anything that is not signed and dated by both parties is not billable, payable or allowed
J). Specify any and all penalties that may incur for not adhering to the agreement

Hope this helps in the future..

Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Jim, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but does your contract specify a completion date?

Anytime you enter an agreement to have work done (or when you preform work for others), it is always a good idea to have the details in writing. Here is a short list of things to include in an agreement;
A). Specify what the work to be performed will be (list the details)
B). Specify any materials that is to be used (list the manufacture's names and numbers whenever possible)
C). Specify a reasonable amount of time to complete the work (due date)
D). Specify what the complete and total cost will be, excluding any approved extras
E). Specify what qualifies as an approved extra (i.e., anything not listed in the agreement)
F). Specify the labor rate for extra work
G). Require all extras work be detailed on an Extra Work Form that lists time and materials required
H). Require all Extra Work Forms be signed and dated by both parties
I). Specify that anything that is not signed and dated by both parties is not billable, payable or allowed
J). Specify any and all penalties that may incur for not adhering to the agreement

Hope this helps in the future..

Hindsight is 20/20. Guess I still have lessons to learn. Thanks for the advise.

If it's any consolation, the carpet does look nice.

Jim, I hope my post didn't come off as disrespectful. Certainly didn't mean for that. Just trying to help for future situations.

Item J is termed "Liquidated Damages" in contract jargon, and generally equates to what is the value of time. It sounds good, and it's a necessary feature in major contracts for facilities that produce a salable product, but for a services contract it's a tough thing to enforce. There's always some excuse to be made for why it's late, and getting a small business to agree up front that he'll knock off say $200 for every day past the due date is gonna be tough. Just sayin' it sounds good, but good luck getting a guy to agree up front, then double good luck enforcing it when he's late. Your best bet, in my experience, is to camp out at the guy's shop, and keep up a running dialog regarding why he's not working on your project. The squeaky wheel gets greased, and the bigger PITA you make yourself the more grease gets applied. My $0.02.

LOL, without getting into an argument to wether it is penalties or liquidated damages (both are not always the same). My point was to simply give some guidelines to achieve a meeting of the minds, meaning both parties know what is expected of them.

In Jim’s case, he is expected to pay for the services rendered and the shop is expected to do the work in a professional workman like manner. However, without a due date, the shop can put other projects in front without any consideration for whom came first, while it is morally unethical, it is NOT illegal (most shops will not do this). And, if there are no penalties or consequences then the customer has no recourse other than what is allowed by law (granted penalties are not always easy to collect). If you look closely at the bottom of your receipt, most shop have a clause that states “if not claimed after 30 days your property can be sold”. This is damages, and what’s good for the goose should also be good for the gander.

It is reasonable to expect a due date (in some states it is required by law) for services. It is reasonable to expect a job to be performed in a professional workman like manner. It is reasonable to expect a job to be competed with due diligence. It is reasonable to expect to be paid for services rendered. It is reasonable to expect to suffer consequences for abandonment (abandonment can also be defined as not completing a job). And it is reasonable to expect damages when a contract is not fulfilled. Are there exceptions, always. But, it should be agreed to by all parties, not just one writing the rules as they go.

A contract wether written or oral, must contain a meeting of the minds.

While the squeaky grease scenario, does get results, it can sometimes get less than desirable results. I’m not saying it’s not a good idea to make your presence noticed, I’m just saying do it wisely.

If it were me at this point, I would schedule a meeting with the sales rep and/or the owner of the shop to discuss my displeasure with the progress and establish a reasonable timeline for completion.

Originally Posted by 36 sedan

LOL, without getting into an argument to wether it is penalties or liquidated damages (both are not always the same). My point was to simply give some guidelines to achieve a meeting of the minds, meaning both parties know what is expected of them.

In Jim’s case, he is expected to pay for the services rendered and the shop is expected to do the work in a professional workman like manner. However, without a due date, the shop can put other projects in front without any consideration for whom came first, while it is morally unethical, it is NOT illegal (most shops will not do this). And, if there are no penalties or consequences then the customer has no recourse other than what is allowed by law (granted penalties are not always easy to collect). If you look closely at the bottom of your receipt, most shop have a clause that states “if not claimed after 30 days your property can be sold”. This is damages, and what’s good for the goose should also be good for the gander.

It is reasonable to expect a due date (in some states it is required by law) for services. It is reasonable to expect a job to be performed in a professional workman like manner. It is reasonable to expect a job to be competed with due diligence. It is reasonable to expect to be paid for services rendered. It is reasonable to expect to suffer consequences for abandonment (abandonment can also be defined as not completing a job). And it is reasonable to expect damages when a contract is not fulfilled. Are there exceptions, always. But, it should be agreed to by all parties, not just one writing the rules as they go.

A contract wether written or oral, must contain a meeting of the minds.

While the squeaky grease scenario, does get results, it can sometimes get less than desirable results. I’m not saying it’s not a good idea to make your presence noticed, I’m just saying do it wisely.

If it were me at this point, I would schedule a meeting with the sales rep and/or the owner of the shop to discuss my displeasure with the progress and establish a reasonable timeline for completion.

I wish I lived in your idealistic world, or that I'd picked up some of those rose colored glasses back when they were so popular.

There's a huge difference between a large shop with a bunch of worker bee's and a one-man-show upholstery shop. Most of the places that we as hot rodders do business with will tell a guy to take his business somewhere else if he tries to establish penalty/liquidated damage clauses in a work agreement. Your experience may be different, and I'm happy for you if that's the case.

Cool, no more to say..

Oh I've let him know I'm not pleased with excuse after excuse. And yes my visits are becoming more frequent. The problem with taking my car to another shop in the area is they are all very expensive and I just can't afford it. Then too I'll have the (last guy did it wrong and I have to redo what he did) scenario. Instead of just finishing up the job it'll cost me double. I've had guys try to pull me down that road and I told them no thanks. And too it wouldn't be the first time I've taken someone to small claims court to get things handled (and yes that was a verbal agreement as well). All that said I know a lot of people in the hot/street rod game and word will get around fast.

Not much solace Jim, but I'm reminded of upholstering the '40 coupe a couple decades ago.

Anyone who's started/owned their own small business, or ever dreamt of it, thinks of the little guy expressing his entrepreneurial heroism or some such attribute. While true for many, in too many other cases it's a matter of the guy having to work for himself because he's used up all the employers who grew tired of his poor work habits. Because they don't understand the positive work traits of meeting promises and such other nuisances they repeatedly "buy business" with underpricing. So goes the cycle.

On the 40 coupe I shot myself in the foot (as we all do when making decisions that don't work out). The bride comes home from work one evening and asks if I'm about at the point of upholstering the car. My reply is "yep, why you askin'?" Turns out one of her co-workers has a young man new to their church who's just gotten out of Walla Walla from a drug beef and needs to get his life back on course. He claims to be an accomplished upholsterer and just needs someone to give him a break. Yeah, red flags all over the field eh? Well, being somewhat sappy and believing in all that redemption stuff I interview him. He has an impressive book of pics showing some of his past work. So we set up a plan. Because he's broke, has a small family, and just out of the can he's working out of his father in laws garage. Well, I'm not that sappy, so I don't give him the car, but give him access to the car to do all the measuring and pattern making. I buy all the materials directly from the supply house so there's no loss of control of material quality concerns. He gets started like a house afire. Trim panels made up, carpet cut, and then.......bupkus for a couple weeks. Yep, excuses aplenty...............familiar eh? As it happens, 4th of July that year was on a Friday and the shop was going to be closed for three days, so I gave him an ultimatum. If he ever wants to see a dime of income he comes to my shop and we work til it's done, no matter how much inconvenience. He whines about needing his large sewing table. I say I've got plywood and 2x4s aplenty, how big a table do you need? Upshot is he needed the money and finished it that weekend (actually by Saturday evening)....and did a fabulous job. But it wasn't going to happen that quickly based on his own initiative.

I get the "living within a budget" thing, but too often a "business" offers a lower price when compared to reputable shops because that's the only way they can attract customers who make that their primary decision point. Of course money only represents value in a transaction, time and aggravation are other cost factors even if we don't equate a monetary amount to them. Reminiscent of the old filter commercial tag line............."pay me now or pay me later". Like I said, small solace, but we've all done it to ourselves at some point or other.

Believe it or not guys, I was not trying to be a smart ass, or meaning to disrespect, demean, or otherwise offend anyone with my post. And, obviously, life is different in California than the other states. My apologies if I offended anyone...

When price is the issue, you sometimes have to put up with a long wait, like I did, waiting 15 months to get my grille. If I was foolish with my money, I could probably have paid $6-7,000 to get an expedited build of the welding fixture and then another $1800 for the grille, but I didn't pursue that route. I never got any excuses, but I was unhappy when I was told that the grille would be done by the end of October and it was finished on April 1. I sure could have used it 5 months earlier, before the car was torn down for paint. I'm just glad that I can now finish the car without the junk grille that Oze apparently gets away with using on the cars they build for customers. As it is, I still paid for two grilles and another $300 in freight, shipping grilles back and forth.

Around here, if you went to a shop with a lengthy contract for someone to sign, I think they'd all tell you they don't need your business that bad. The going rate is $65 an hour at most shops. I can't afford much of that time. So far, I've done everything myself, including aluminum upholstery panels and a core foam and fiberglass headliner. All that's left is carpeting.

Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Jim, I hope my post didn't come off as disrespectful. Certainly didn't mean for that. Just trying to help for future situations.

No disrespect taken. It's all good.

So I decide to pop in and pay him a visit. His truck is there but the lights are off and he is nowhere to be seen. There is a package at his door so I stuffed a note in it to call me (very visible) and I leave. I get home and I follow up with a call and his voice mail came up and he says "You have reached Undercover upholstery please leave a message" so I did. Only trouble is; his business is called Cote's upholstery not under cover!! So he calls me back and tells me he was going to call me to give me an update anyway (that would be a first) then proceeds to tell me he took the headliner down to wire in the dome light. He says whoever wired this car they did a real sloppy job and while he was hooking up the dome light into the fuse panel sparks started to fly because there were exposed bare live wires. Then he tells me I should have the car towed from here once he is done and have the electrical looked at by a professional. Funny I ran the car for a couple months and drove it there without issue. But after he installed the firewall rug NOW THERE ARE EXPOSED WIRES? So at the end of this interesting conversation I asked him if he saw my note and he said no and that he was up till 3 AM working on my car. The way I see it he is now living there. Up till 3? Truck is there? Didn't see a note stuck to a huge box that was in his doorway? Yeah, thinking of going there with the cops and a flatbed and pull all my shit out of there. Then he can sue me for whatever he thinks I may owe him. Sorry for the rant.