Thread: GM said it lost $38.7 billion in 2007.

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WOW - I thought that GM said that they were on-track for a banner year and were making money. My investments have tanked in the last few weeks, what's another hit :

"GM said it lost $38.7 billion in 2007. The loss largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The Detroit-based automaker also on Tuesday said it was offering a new round of buyouts to all 74,000 of its U.S. hourly workers who are represented by the United Auto Workers.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat."

Beginning to wonder if the US will become totally ricer territory

Dave,

There was an article some time back that Toyota may eventually take over Ford. And if GM keep on the way it is going they may also be taken over. Several years ago I was reading a report that said in the future there would be 3 or maybe 4 major vehicle manufacturing companies in the world and ford and GM would not be one of them. They mentioned Volkswagen, Daimler, Toyota and another that I don't remember.

Ron

Originally Posted by Ron75

Dave,

There was an article some time back that Toyota may eventually take over Ford. And if GM keep on the way it is going they may also be taken over. Several years ago I was reading a report that said in the future there would be 3 or maybe 4 major vehicle manufacturing companies in the world and ford and GM would not be one of them. They mentioned Volkswagen, Daimler, Toyota and another that I don't remember.

Ron

Well, I guess I'd better start laying in my supply of rice then. I'd be really surprised if either of the 2 German brands survived, but they like the Japanese do have significant government tax support/relief - which is why we at GE had such a hard time breaking in to the power gen markets in the Far East and Europe. Now GE is in consortium with EDF in France and Hitachi (along with many other companies). My guess is that Nissan and a yet to be determined Chinese brand might be the automotive leaders. Maybe a future issue of Forbes will "enlighten" me

I'm not trying to be Chicken Little here, but the economy is not good and doesn't look like it will be getting any better any time soon. Holley just filed for chapter 11 ( Holley Performance Files for Ch 11 - AP - National Business News - Portfolio.com)

GM and others like IBM have had mass layoffs and "early retirement buyouts."

We had better get our heads out of our butts in this country and start building things here again. I think I heard something about for the first time in many years we are now buying more from other countries than we sell to them.

Every industry you look at is suffering right now from construction to automobiles. You almost can't give a new car or home away because people are afraid to spend any money.

Don

it`s all part of the master plan to make the united states a third world nation .. we simply need to come home lock our borders to foreigners and be america again ..

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I'm not trying to be Chicken Little here, but the economy is not good and doesn't look like it will be getting any better any time soon. Holley just filed for chapter 11 ( Holley Performance Files for Ch 11 - AP - National Business News - Portfolio.com)

GM and others like IBM have had mass layoffs and "early retirement buyouts."

We had better get our heads out of our butts in this country and start building things here again. I think I heard something about for the first time in many years we are now buying more from other countries than we sell to them.

Every industry you look at is suffering right now from construction to automobiles. You almost can't give a new car or home away because people are afraid to spend any money.

Don

The negative balance of trade - that is, we are buying more overseas then we are selling to them is bad and has been for more years then I can remember. It's just worse now.

The dollar is about as low as it has has been against the other major currencies - in 2005 the US dollar was about .75 to the UK Pound, today it's .51 (1.50 then to 2.00 now), the Euro then was about .93/1.00 today, it's 1.46. A barrel of oil was ~$25, today, $93. Why - the administration decided to print more money. And of course this affects jobs and sales of homes. And I'm a Republican - and I'm upset too. Unfortunately, the Dems don't have any plans that are any better - and as a matter of fact, their proposed socialistic plans will be even more of a problem for those who are in the middle and lower income range. Make sure who you vote for and understand their platform when it comes time. Me - I don't like any of 'em, so it will be the lesser of the evils.

Unfortunately, it's gonna get worse for a while before it gets better

Being pessimistic is easy, just sit back and let people tell you what a victim you are. Isn't that what election years are all about? I can't remember a year of my moderately long life that we haven't faced some sort of doom or gloom..............but somehow we're still here, I haven't had to step over any dead bodies caused by starvation on the sidewalk ever, and here I am, along with all of you, participating in a forum that is totally dedicated to a luxury hobby (I don't care where you are on the spectrum of hot rods, none of it is a necessity of life).

Do we have challenges to deal with? Sure, we always do. The only reason to believe today is worse than ever before is to, to borrow a phrase from the favorite candidate of some of you, suspend disbelief. Or in other words ignore history.

If you read the report on the Holley bankruptcy, in the third paragraph it says they're profitable. In other words, sales isn't their problem, it's that they went on a buying spree over the past decade, see all their brands here; Holley Performance Brands, paid too much to acquire those companies, and are now in over their head on debt. That's called bad business decisions.

As for our making things, it might be useful to read what the actual manufacturers say about their industries; National Association of Manufacturers - The Facts About Modern Manufacturing They are pretty clear that what you've been told by some politicians and their lap dogs in the media is not true. Note too that they say one of their biggest problems is finding qualified people................in other words folks who are willing to work and have taken advantage of the most costly public education system on the planet. They also go on to point out other problems they have, most notably health care costs and the cost of excessive litigation.

Again a historical note. Almost nobody, industry or private citizens complained about the out of control costs of health care prior to 40 years ago. What happened then? Something called Medicare was implimented, proving how government control of health care has "helped".

GM (along with the other auto makers) spent decades making bad labor deals and product decisions. They're now paying the price and have to fight for survival. If they succeed they'll be stronger for it, if not that's how life has always been. And before someone says they didn't make the right kind of cars sit down and make a list of all the new models Toyota (today's king of the automotive hill)has added to it's lineup the last 15 years. After the Prius, let me know what you come up with.

I watch commercials for GM touting their pick up. Then Ford tells how great theirs is. One day soon they're going to be producing the same truck because the companies will have merged to hold off the Japs.

There's a whole generation that has no US brand loyalty. Like perverse elitists unless it is foreign it can't be good. Wanna call 'em Yuppies? Remember when only French Perrier would do? They like to hear about people burning American flags and losing face in parts of the globe. The blame Bush, or any current prez, for everything to the point of idiodic extremes.

There are enough people out there that get some perverse jolt from seeing their country take hits. They want to live here and take all the advantages offered yet like 60s radicals they hope the evil US fails and becomes some socialist haven. They are so stupid that unless all their wealth and income is from offshore they also have a lot to lose when the economy turns sour in this country but don't act like it.

Uncle Bob, you'll probably get hammered from the left over most of those statements, but they are sooo true.
My first job after release from Uncle Sams Misguided Children was with Douglas Aircraft at Long Beach, Ca. The job required membership in the UAW and I thought "Wow, I'm now protected from the Big Bad Wolf". As long as you were in one of the cliques I guess that was true, but if you weren't you were mostly on your own.
Douglas was forced to merge, actually bought out, by McDonnell Aircraft because of a very poor business decision by Douglas Senior who upon retirement gave the company to Douglas Junior who then ran the company into the ground.
I left in '72 and I would imagine that further poor business decisions along with union demands had a lot to do with Boeing buying out McDonnell Douglas. I'm sure there are other factors which came into play, but the two I mentioned are probably at the top of the list.
As a side note, Boeing's web site says that the Long Beach facility will be shut down some time this year if I read it correct.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I'm not trying to be Chicken Little here, but the economy is not good and doesn't look like it will be getting any better any time soon. Holley just filed for chapter 11 ( Holley Performance Files for Ch 11 - AP - National Business News - Portfolio.com)

GM and others like IBM have had mass layoffs and "early retirement buyouts."

We had better get our heads out of our butts in this country and start building things here again. I think I heard something about for the first time in many years we are now buying more from other countries than we sell to them.

Every industry you look at is suffering right now from construction to automobiles. You almost can't give a new car or home away because people are afraid to spend any money.

Don

I am .....THE SKY IS FALLLLING!!!!!!!!!!!THE SKY IS FALLING>>>!!!!
We have group of about 50 people living under the river bridge at the mouth to the ocean.......and that is up by alot from previous years,alot of people moved away last year from our street becuase of the increased rent and cost of living,the studio hut across the street just was vacated a 900 a month and was rented the next week at 1300 .......
I just refilled my propane bottles and it cost 20 dollars a pop for 5 gallons ,up about 20 percent from last month.....mark my words the BOOM will be lowered in 2009...there are alot of laws on the books slated to take effect that year ...alot of laws.....
In the last few years I have been trying to not patronize the larger chain places and spend my money at the mom and pop places ,why give my money to a giant corperation that cares nothing about me ..only wants to make profit from me......well this age of make a profit off everything is coming to a end.....you know alot of things were invented to make life better and to help man ...profit was not the main motivator behind everything untill the last 30 years or soo... The sooner we ditch the money stuff the better this world will be...after all it would then be about how much you contributed to the world ,not the scale we have now ,which is how much can you take from the world as pretence to ones stature or rank in society........

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

...... Or in other words ignore history. .....

.......... But Bob .......... "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

Just keep in mind the reality of the situation and that is ....The large corperations are holding this whole mess together ,they have a vested interest in doing soo ,the people on the other hand are definatly not holding this mess together,we are just willing and unwilling riders on the amusement ride........when the big boys can not make profit as in big profit ,not just making a living ,but leer jet kind of living they will fold up shop and we will be left with the husk .
Almost everything done in the last 40 years has been to keep us afloat for 10 or more so years ,not a solution or even the road to a solution ,it has been crutches and baindaids for years now,the decisions that were made ,were made to just get by a while longer ,not permanent solutions.,.......well, we are all tired of baindiads and crutches,besides that we are running out peters to rob to pay pauls....soo they have been robbing you instead of peter,problem is none of the money is making to paul,soo we are getting no where ,in fact we are going backwards..............
and it seems the political diversions of a election are keeping us occupied with the irrelevant and mundane ,while the situation remains unchanged,sad thing is we still believe the figure head will save us or change anything....
The people get mad ,soo we elect a new diversion to lie and make us feel better ,after all its a state of mind and if we keep the people in a good state of mind ,they will not care if tax them to death and never fufill any promises...as long as they are happy..the cycle continues.
I wonder how outlandish the actors and news crews will get this year to help offset the rising fears and failing public opinions .....
Maybe they will elect Micheal Jackson next to help draw attention away from whats really going on.......

Is it ever fun when a "bomb" is thrown out for discussion.

I really do like some in depth discussion on these subjects as they give me a chance to think as well. I am not of the 'sky is falling' mentality. We as a country have a bunch of problems. They will be 'fixed', but history has and will repeat itself. Unfortunately there are a lot of small self indulgent splinter groups that make a lot of noise. This in turn causes some knee jerk reaction. We have a Congress that might on a good day, have a 20% approval rating. The Dems moved into power a year ago with the proclamation by Nancy Pelosi that in the first 100 hours, major changes would occur. Now that we are by that first 100 hours by about 9600 hours, there has been little accomplished. Immigration? When is the fence going to be finished? But with that said, will it do any good to close the barn door to keep the horses out when there already 12MM UDA's here. National Security? That keeps getting watered down. WE WILL have another attack - but my guess is that it wont be a simple plane bomb the next time. Imports/trade balance. Like I said above- it's bad and continues to worsen as the Far Eastern influence keeps getting stronger. Iraq? Dammit, Uncle Sam, make a commitment, finish your job and get out. This little "brush fire" war is bleeding the US to the tune of 1-2 MMM per WEEK. Then there is the Iran and Korean 'axis of evil' left of the three.

No, I'm not Chicken Little. I do live in NY State, which now has the highest taxes and fees in the US, but my county, Saratoga, is the only one in NY where the property taxes have either remained stable or gone down plus we are the only county in the State that has ever given homeowners a rebate. Unemployment is at less then 4% - my wife cannot hire healthy, drug free people to work for her company - there is just too much to pick and choose from. Now, school taxes - 'nother story, but still not too bad.

Grocery store and gas station - it is getting dam' expensive, particularly since my retirement cut my income by a bit more then half, but my investments are still in the green. And I haven't touched them. (Why do you think I keep my young chick wife working - believe that, and can I interest you in some 'special' Florida land?)

As far as GM, well it used to be "How GM goes, so will the rest of the country" Not so any more. They dug themselves a big hole with union concessions, poor quality, hum drum designs and their arrogance to customer needs. (could be said about Ford and Chrysler as well)

'Nuff said - need some more folks to say their piece.

From this page

This was in 2006...


Life would be great if we could pull the same tricks with our finances that GM has pulled off with theirs. Earlier this month the ailing Detroit giant reported a loss of $323 million, a substantial loss, but still a significant improvement over the same quarter the previous year. They significantly changed their financial fortunes yesterday, though, by announcing that they have retracted that loss and instead posted a $445 million profit.

The extra $778 million didn’t appear as the result of a sudden rush of sales or anything like that. Instead, it came about because SEC regulators, after conversations with GM, have allowed a different interpretation of the settlement they had to make with retired workers over health care costs. The SEC had previously required GM to report the cost entirely in the first quarter. That never made a lot of sense, and it has been remedied. Instead, the charge will be spread out over 7 years, starting in the third quarter of this year, which is when the settlement will come into effect.


2005 Pay scale & other bonuses for GM top dogs Do the math & you'll see where some of the "LOSE" is at.


and I love this part from this page During this week’s bargaining convention, the U.A.W.’s president, Ron Gettelfinger, repeatedly criticized executives at the Delphi Corporation, the auto supplier that declared bankruptcy in 2005, for collecting bonuses while trying to cut hourly workers’ pay and benefits. Delphi says the $37 million in incentive pay recently approved by a bankruptcy judge is necessary to keep top executives from leaving.


Personally I blame the GM big wigs for all of their troubles, but also blame some of the workers for the crappy job they do putting together some of thier cars/trucks.

to bad the camaro will be way overpriced. even the challenger is basing at 37 what a waste of time.