Thread: Big 3 bailout

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

I say let them fall.

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The sad thing is, To better explain this. I work for 2, not 1 , but 2 major automotive builders. And the problem falls with not bailing them out is. For every one aoutomotive worker that loses thier job, there will be another 20 to 25 people or more in other factories that will lose thier jobs.

Auto factories are merely assymbely plants. All the cars parts, dashes, carpet, seats, door pads, stereos, speakers, consoles, glass, mirrors, engines, trannys, susspensions, tires, rims, cladding, grills, tail and headlights, wiring, ETC, ETC, ETC, These items are made elsewhere and transported to the assymbly plants, Woops the truckers delivering the stuff just lost thier jobs too. Everything from the raw steel in foundries layed in sheets for the stamped panels to the ash tray and everything in between comes to a hault.

Even deeper thinking, the people maknig the tools to provide equipment, robotic equipment, welders, hand tools, uniforms, safety glasses, shoes, ETC, ETC, ETC, again. all that stuff adds in too. I think it is a bad deal all around, The companies sure did not plan things out very well for the long haul, Some of this could have been avoided throughout all the needless high time CEO spending, 9 million dollar paychecks, private jets, 10 million dollar concept cars that would never see the road all for just saying look what we built. millions of dollars on private parties and stupid crap. Not to mention all factories are way far over managed by people that think it looks good on paper, but in reality it sometimes does not work.

It kinda makes me sick now that I think of it in a big picture.

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

I think the whole bailout thing is kind of like a fashion trend or a fad, maybe???? Still can't find a listing in DC for the Department of Bailout, I could sure use a few billion to help with our racing budget!!!

The banks got their big bailout, seems like they're just sitting on the money....If the big 3 have such a workable plan and it's a slam dunk for an istant return on investment, why don't the banks loan them the money???

I figured all 3 would welcome restructurring under Chapter 11, would give them a chance to dump the unions and negotiate with workers based on productivity, attendance, job improvement recomendations and things that might actually make a difference!!!!

I respect the unions for what they helped to accomplish making working conditions better and safer for workers, but haven't they really outlived their usefullnes now??? Friend of mine, retired about 5 years, was a UAW member for 30 years...not by choice but because he was more or less forced to belong... His opinion was that the UAW's main purpose was to protect the slackers and hold back the go-getters!!!! Having never been in a union I would have no idea if that is true, but it's what he's been saying about the union for years.....

it true i know someone that got very sick trying to get some of the lazzy ass s to work never got any where. but his life threaten by workers and they at the end of the day the workers still did get paid not to work .what did the guy i know what did he did get for trying to make workers do better. he has cancer and a job that just about made him nuts. i know all the $hit he put up with and all the stress he put up with makes me wonder if it added to his very bad heath ?

Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean closure.... Sure it could happen, but what usually happens is the management team is replace, there are new investors and after an "adjustment period", many business that have been in Chapter 11 come back stronger and more profitable then ever....

I guess these days, even in big business, it's easier to wait for the government to fix things then it is to kick ***, take names, and run a business in a profitable manner....

Ditto on what Dave said twice.

Chapter 11 can be a re-birth if done right, but can we trust them to do it right. The Big 3 have had numerous opportunities in the past to revamp and restructure, but they have always stayed the course of business as usual. That won't work this time, it's change or die. Or at least it should be.

I realize the ramifications that can and may run through all of the industries in the automotive loop, and I hope all can survive to play again another day, but change must come if any or all want to be around for another decade.

Using taxpayer money to bail these irresponsible companies out (including the investment firms and banks) is pure bullshit. Taxes will have to increase on all levels of income to offset the realocation of funds that were meant for other purposes, such as education, defense, exploration, and homeland security. There is just so much money to go around, so something has to give it up so the loanee's can get their needs met.

I am glad to see this thread, I wanted to start the same idea but am not sure how to start a thread on this new Forum. Anyway some sensible stuff has already been said but let me say some of what Bob and Pat said. Back in the 1880-1900 era working conditions were terrible and unions were needed and effective in raising wages, improving safety and gaining benefits for workers. But we now have quite a few laws that prevent most of the abuses of workers. I would think that unions are still needed in coal mining but of course the new Administration will effectively eliminate any need for coal in the near future?!? The point is that there is a need for checks and balances between workers and employers but over the years unions have gotten greedy and the result is that GM is being drained of it's life blood by things like paid laid off workers and retirements before Medicare can kick in. I am horrified that GM might go down and pull Ford with it; Chrysler has been on the ropes for a long time. In my opinion it is the UAW that has caused this problem and the Democratic Congress is trying to bail out the Big 3 mainly to keep the UAW in business. That is why some Republicans want to see bankruptcy result so that Chapter 11 can cancel the UAW contracts! I have worked in union shops in my youth and saw what Pat said in that the unions protect the non-performers; especially in the Teacher Unions! My pet peeve is those effete environmentalists who keep saying that Detroit was not building the cars people want. I disagree, I think the gas crisis was sudden but people did want SUVs, minvans and muscle cars! After all the auto companies did market analysis and gambled on what people wanted and Lee Iacocca was a marketing genius who guessed right several times. Then all of a sudden the Prius-people say Detroit is not making what THEY wanted. I think the answer is for GM to build more Chevy Cobalts in various models. Some Plain Jane commuter Cobalts that get 38 mpg and others with turbos that are mini-muscle cars for some of us. The Prius-people just do not understand the "put-your-foot-in-it-and-fly" experience and maybe never will in a Prius! Sure electric cars are things of the near future but where is the grid to supply millions of cars? It is also evident in the design of electric cars that ever larger motors are being developed but where are the batteries? Hydrogen storage and fuel cells for in situ electric cars will get here eventually but I doubt it before 2025. The Chevy VOLT is a good idea for the intermediate development stage in the change over to electric cars. However the column by Brian Brennen in the February 2009 Street Rodder says Rodding is now mainly done by older men and a few interesting women and that they will stay with rodding long after the Prius becomes a market leader. Soooo, the Senate Republicans may prevent the bailout temporarily in the hope of cancelling the UAW contracts under bankruptcy, but the next administration will rescue the UAW and stretch out the life of the Big 3 for a little longer, but unless the UAW can be throttled back somehow the future looks like Joe Gibbs made a wise decision to go with Toyoto and NASCAR will be dominated by Toyota and maybe Ford. Will Ford survive if GM goes down? Probably not. What Pat said about the WWII mfgr of Jeeps, tanks and planes worries me too. Gee I really liked that SBC 350 that has lasted so long and the Buick 3.8 V6 is a pretty good motor too, but now we will be looking at OHC-4 cyls in the future. Anybody got a Miller/CRAGAR head for a Model A/B block?

Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder

Yup, it's all the Democrats fault!!!!!!

I guess I don't see where party affilitation guarantees common sense or the ability to govern in a rational manner....

Again, does everything have to be blamed on one party or the other???? If so, then lets ad a new party, how about the party of common sense, and one that does what is best for the people who sent them there???? Bush and his cohorts have done such a wonderful job!!! Just last night, they changed the farm labor laws so that it is no longer necessary to try to hire a US citizen first, just go out and hire non US citizens on a work visa and to heck with unemployed US citizens..... I don't see where the republicans have done any better!!!!!!

Our two party system is a joke.... Justice is the best money can buy....

Oh well, the party is over anyway..... Few in government even give a hoot about what is best for the majority, and only care about what is best for them and their party... And we, as citizens of this once great country, perpetuate the greed and corruption of the system by arguing good and bad as Democrats and Republicans...... Then totally lose track of what is actually required to straighten this whole mess out and satisfy our own self-righteous indignation by blaming one party or the other for things gone bad..... Oh well, I guess if we all just continue to play this ridiculous game just a bit longer the whole system will self-destruct.... Maybe whatever starts up as a new system will be better, maybe not...

Unless individual responsibility and accountability comes into style and elected officials are judged on their personal merit instead of party affiliation, nothing will change and nothing will improve....

The blame the other party crap is the same as a magician's slight of hand.... While we watch the obvious, the "trick" goes unseen..... Then, when it's all over, we just sit around and wonder what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Dave, I think I stated the facts, the Democrats are pushing the bailout and as I said some of the Republicans are trying to stop it. I thought I was pretty mild in my analysis, but in any event it looks like the bailout will occur next February anyway. Frankly I sort of hope GM survives somehow and I have even written to my Republican Representative to recommend supporting the bailout but stop at all costs the Fascist Union Card Checkoff bill that may crop up in February. Gee that would be a way to put the UAW into the Toyoto and BMW plants too! Face it Dave, the idea that Independents could swing things went down with Perot so we have to recognize there is just a TWO party system that ebbs and flows. Sadly even heros like Cunningham screwed up and dirtied the Republicans so now it is the turn of some Democrat to mess up and so it goes. As far as I can tell CHANGE is just change for it's own sake; them or us back and forth and in the muddle some common sense eventually trickles through. Ironically I think the strength of our system IS the change in the elections and I think you have said before that you prefer term limits. As far as your preference for politicians with integrity, I am with you on that!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Yup, we're stuck with the 2 party system..... Let's just keep things going the way they've been for the last 20 years, the other party done it, God is on our side, etc., etc., etc.

Oh well, when it all falls apart, gonna be one heck of a train wreck!!!!

Think I'll just plant me a big garden, sit on the deck and watch the whole thing implode!!!!!!!

The workers at the Toyota and BMW plants don't want the UAW, let the reps go out their and see what a real plant runs like!!!!

If people could just look beyond party affiliation and put the blame or the credit on the person, not the party!!!!! Parties don't become corrupt, people do. Parties can't straighten out this fiscal disaster, people can....

As I said, blaming "the party" is just a cop out and goes right along with what the "good old boy" politicians want us to do, which is point fingers and cast blame rather then look for viable solutions.....

Neither the government nor either party is not gonna fix this mess, they're the one's who caused it!!!!!




PS--Wasn't it old GW hisself who initially said we gotta have this bailout, it's right, trust me????? And that money is just laying in the banks so the big bankers can sit back and be smug again....

Let them fail....................and bring back Hudson and Studebaker.

I just wish that big government would stay out of big business. If the automakers can cower down to unions and allow them to bankrupt them with their ridiculous contracts, then let them cease to exist. The taxpayer should not have to carry the burden for this foolishness. Politicians are not good businessmen and have proven this over and over. The picture I got watching the congressional hearings was that of politicians trembling in their shoes trying to quickly make an educated decision that will be a quick fix that will save the "Big 3" of our auto industry. And the auto and union execs, knowing they had congress backed into the ropes, were doing their best not to bust out laughing at this entire congressional fiasco. This picture of gloom and doom painted by these execs has forced these politicians who fear unions, special interest groups, and voters to make a decision that I know they are not qualified to make. And the taxpayer will suffer for it. Sad. The strong businesses will survive this without government intervention, and a strong nation will also survive. The question is: Are we that strong nation we once were? If not, then we deserve to fail along with the auto industry.

Well the Govt. couldn't run the whore houses they took over in Nevada and they had to go out of business and running them is a lot simpler than running one of the Big 3. Get rid of the party politic crap and start doing their job and serving the people and not each other. I don't care which party comes up with a good idea, both should use it if there are any idiots back there that are capable of having an original thought. I just finished reading a projection of what to expect next year to be like and it makes this year look good.

Ron

A few years back, one job in six was directly related to the automobile biz.

Now I understand that it's one job in ten.


Before you decide you want to have the automakers fail so as to teach them a lesson, better make sure your job isn't part of it....

Originally Posted by Ron75

Well the Govt. couldn't run the whore houses they took over in Nevada and they had to go out of business and running them is a lot simpler than running one of the Big 3. .......Ron

And they ARE experts at whoring Ronnie!!!

Frome a friend:

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The UAW won't budge on hourly wage adjustments until 2011. Senators say no to bailout passage and are going home. Sitting here shaking my head!