Thread: Really bad science

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Anybody besides me get tired of all the BS the “experts” throw out at us especially as it pertains to the environment and their very slanted view of how it should be??????

I just came across this article with the blaring headline that “BIOFUEL THREATENS WATER SUPPLIES …..Gallon of BIOFUEL may require up to more than 2,100 gallons of water”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30158655/

Sounds pretty impressive and a little scary until you start crunching some numbers. I got curious and started crunching some numbers. I used where I grew up at in the mid west and searched out some data. Average precipitation for that area is just under 3 foot per year of course sometimes more sometimes less. What that means is that for EVERY acre of ground in the area, mother nature pours 977,553 gallons (or just short of a million gallons) on EVRY acre every year.

Very little of that water is actually tied up in the crops, grass and weeds, the majority of it actually runs off or is re-evaporated into humidity to be rained again. In other words that rain water is re-cycled over and over again. Even the water actually ties up in a gallon of biofuel will eventually be released as water vapor during combustion. Something will be growing on that land regardless….and needs to be if nothing else than for the sake of erosion control.


Now I’ve never been accused of being the smartest guy and maybe I’m missing something, but if your going to tell me something, I’d prefer to hear the complete story.

By the way I’d like a refund on all the tax dollars that went to fund this “study”.

Interesting read Mike..... More of the media scare crap..... Wonder if they ever look for any good news to tell us about???? Instead of the Easter Bunny bringing candy, maybe it should be "Huge rabbit attempts to ruin children's teeth!!!!!!" ???

The water supply will actually increase---reason being--the farmer will sell his crop for bio-fuel instead of raising cattle and pigs for the food supply and we;ll save all that water the cows would of drank and the pigs won't be wallowing in the mud holes so the water supply will be cleaner---course all the midwest water runs off down the Mississippi River so this does expose Katrinaville to new flooding dangers

Good news for me, Jerry... Hopefully that means the water will rise in the Missouri River too, and maybe we can use the boat dock at Pike Haven again!!!!

Oh yeah....and again we'll be guilty of endangering the world's food supply cuz we don't raise pigs no more, but that would be good news, cuz the pigs ain't poopin' and creating all that deadly methane gas!!!! No, wait!!!! that deadly methane gas from the pigs could be used to power a generator, right??? Man, I just get so confused!!!! Think I'll just go to the shop and build Hot Rods!!!!

It seems nothing is simple any more. Sometimes I wish I'd lived a hundred years ago. :-) .....wait a minute! They didn't have Rods, customs, and drag racing then. Forget that.

I was taught in school (a long time ago) that water never ceases to exist. The hydrogen and oxygen gases are cleansed and recombined in the atmosphere to fall as fresh precipitation.

More to the point, scare tactics seem to be the basis for too much today. Whenever I listen to the news, I have to question whether the dialog is an accurate well-balanced report .....or designed to keep us "inflamed" for political reasons, make us buy a product, or motivate us to tune in at 6:00 & 10:00! :-(

It's sad, but I think people are better off to only view the news occasionally, and just take care of their daily personal life, without letting that damned television have so much influence on it.

Dave

Have they opened the employment office in SD for the Mt. Rushmore project yet?

We are going to build so many windlills for electric power to help combat global warming that the reduction in air temperature downwind of the windmill farms will creat another ice age!!!!!

Hey have you guys heard about leasing solar cells?
A friend from CT came this week. He's putting in a 9KW system. No cost for the install. It will provide 92% of his electrical needs right now. His total cost is zero. He locks in with a monthly payment of 148.00 a month for the next 15 years. As energy prices increase his stays the same. At the end of the lease he can choose to have the panels removed, or extend for five more years for 28 dollars a month lease! I guess everybody wins on this deal. You get fixed rate electricity, green renewable energy, the install company gets the state and fed. rebates, the lease company makes some cash on the l;ong term investment, and your price actually goes down after the 15 years are over. So far I think CT, CA, Colorado and New Jersey are offering similar programs.
I wonder if the biofuel guys are looking at the amount of vegetable oil, tranny fluid, machine oil and oil change oil recycling that is going on in the biofuel department? If I ran a farm or used a diesel engine for work I'd consider making biodiesel as show on truck tv show, it's pretty easy! There always seems pros and cons to everything!

Stovens, Interesting information about your friends system. I am curious if you have a link to and further information on this program.

I had a Home in Redding California for awhile. It was 16 miles from the nearest power Line. The Power Co. said they would bring me power if I paid the standered rate. The rate was $13.82 a foot from the closest power line. You do the math, that was not an option!! So I went with a stand alone Solar system good for seven days with no sunlight, or at least that was the way it was supposed to work. It used solar Voltic panels with a battery system for storage and I did have a generator for back-up, So I do have some amount of knowledge on solar voltiac systems. Your friends system at 9kw is something on the small side of a medium system. There is simple NO way that this system in CT will ever provide him 92% of his energy. He will be damn lucky to get 42% maybe and that is optimistic. The biggest user of electricity in any home is refrigeration and today a really good refrigerator use's somewhere in the area of 1800 to 2000 watts per hour when running. So his system is going to be taxed in an area where there is a lot of sun. I'm pretty sure that CT is not one of those places.

Also with solar panels costing on a average of $3.00 a watt your friends 9kw system would have a cost of $27,000 dollars. his total outlay over the 15 years at $148 a mo would be $26,720. Thats pretty good, but the very best panels made today have a full power life of somewhere around 8 to 15 years after that they lose about 30% of there output a year so they do have a diminishing power output. But this is a good deal.

So with the power Co willing to provide the system and If I am understanding the program the will do so for a monthly payment of $148.00 and that would also include his electric, I want me some of that. Any information would be great.

RS

The real problem with biofuel is that it takes more energy to produce then it is worth.

Or something like that. My dad is a retired nuclear engineer and he can crunch the numbers. He says it is a total pipe dream, and will ultimately be revealed as one of the worst government subsidized projects of all time ( financially )

The biggest problem with the biofuel is that it is raising food prices globally. As more farmers switch to raising biofuel crops instead of food crops, there is less food to go around. Of course, if the US would stop paying subsidies to farmers to NOT raise crops, that trend would probably change.

In the meantime, low income people in third world counties are getting pretty pissed as the cost of flour continues to rise.

BUT.. on the good side.. Farmers in Afghanistan are starting to switch from poppy production to biofuel crops. More money in it for them. And that is a good thing, as it diminishes the leverage/power of the local drug lords. No extortion money in biofuel.

Not sure stopping subsidies to farmers would be a good answer.... Based strictly on supply and demand with no subsidies, farmers would be forced to cut back or cease production on some crops. Subsidies to the huge corporate farms were cut out last year, got to agree that a corporation farming thousands of acres shouldn't be paid subsidies!!!! But cutting them to a small family farm and there's just going to be a lot fewer small farms, and more land going to the corporate farms.... Having been involved with farms and farming since I was born, I can assure you that the small family farm is not a high profit operation..... An average year is considered good if you can pay your operating loan for the year, pay the interest and a bit of princple on your equipment and land loans, and have enough money left to live on til Spring when your operating loan is renegotiated!!!!! The big corporate farms, and the ones owned by ADM and a few other huge crop processing companies are a much bigger problem. Take away all the subsidies and say goodbye to the family owned farm.....

Flour comes from wheat----didn't know it was being used for biofuels.... think the flour shortage might not be a biofuel related problem.... ADM probably has a bit to do with the flour production problem.....

Biofuels aren't the ultimate answer to the fuel problem in the country, just the first attempt.... As with many first attempts at other projects, they are often unsuccessful but they do become a good learning tool and may well lead to a better solution....

Originally Posted by Hombre259

Stovens, Interesting information about your friends system. I am curious if you have a link to and further information on this program.

I had a Home in Redding California for awhile. It was 16 miles from the nearest power Line. The Power Co. said they would bring me power if I paid the standered rate. The rate was $13.82 a foot from the closest power line. You do the math, that was not an option!! So I went with a stand alone Solar system good for seven days with no sunlight, or at least that was the way it was supposed to work. It used solar Voltic panels with a battery system for storage and I did have a generator for back-up, So I do have some amount of knowledge on solar voltiac systems. Your friends system at 9kw is something on the small side of a medium system. There is simple NO way that this system in CT will ever provide him 92% of his energy. He will be damn lucky to get 42% maybe and that is optimistic. The biggest user of electricity in any home is refrigeration and today a really good refrigerator use's somewhere in the area of 1800 to 2000 watts per hour when running. So his system is going to be taxed in an area where there is a lot of sun. I'm pretty sure that CT is not one of those places.

Also with solar panels costing on a average of $3.00 a watt your friends 9kw system would have a cost of $27,000 dollars. his total outlay over the 15 years at $148 a mo would be $26,720. Thats pretty good, but the very best panels made today have a full power life of somewhere around 8 to 15 years after that they lose about 30% of there output a year so they do have a diminishing power output. But this is a good deal.

So with the power Co willing to provide the system and If I am understanding the program the will do so for a monthly payment of $148.00 and that would also include his electric, I want me some of that. Any information would be great.

RS

The CT deal is better than the CA deals availible,but there are several companies with different options out there.
One company I found here is Solar City at http://www.solarcity.com/
Another option is thru Akeena at http://akeena.net/cm/Solar%20Power%20Seminars/Home.html
There seems to be quite a few upstart companies starting now. I'd call a local installer and ask them, since the way I understand it they get the contracts to insstall the lease systems. It may not work for you, but for me I will attend a seminar and decide for myself. Seems to be a no brainer, unless power bills go down in the future!

Hombre
When I talked with Rob, he said they averaged out there kilowatt usage over the last three years, before meeting up with the solar lease people. He was originally looking at a 5 KW system, but the guy said why not meet almost all of your electrical needs. So they priced a system that should meet roughly 92% of their needs. From what I understand, it rolls your meter back while producing energy, and then spins foward while not. No batteries, no storage. Energy goes up the line to power company, and rolls meter back. In the winter I'm not sure if they get credits toward their bill for when they produce more than they need. Here in California, I'm pretty sure the power company won't pay for extra, but you only pay for net meter usage.
Seems like a great way to get into solar without the huge up front cash outlay. Redding by the way should give you lots of juice in the summer!

Originally Posted by stovens

.....I guess everybody wins on this deal. ......!

Everybody that is except those who pay taxes that go to subsidize these programs and the product producers. They get to pay for someone else's living expenses. Did he default on his mortgage too?......gee, then those of us who sacrificed all those years so we could have our mortgages paid up by the time we retire, now can pay for those who spent freely and irresponsibly. When are otherwise intelligent people going to figure out there's ALWAYS a cost to these "good deals", and it ain't cheap!

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Everybody that is except those who pay taxes that go to subsidize these programs and the product producers. They get to pay for someone else's living expenses. Did he default on his mortgage too?......gee, then those of us who sacrificed all those years so we could have our mortgages paid up by the time we retire, now can pay for those who spent freely and irresponsibly. When are otherwise intelligent people going to figure out there's ALWAYS a cost to these "good deals", and it ain't cheap!

Pretty mean spirited responses Bob.