Thread: The Reno Plane crash-Wow

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I have been following the story about the race plane crash in Reno.The most recent development is how these guys mod the planes to make them faster.One thing this guy did was over the yrs to cut off 10' of the wing span.From what I read it is common to do that.Other thing that is under investigation is the trim at the tail of the plane.The reports I read is there isn't much of the original plane left.The question I guess for the novice is if the mods still leave the planes safe/stable.These guys that fly them are going 500mph with nerves of steel low to the ground.

I don't go to airshows because of exactly what just happened. Too many accidents like this and you are a sitting duck on the ground. We had one in our hometown years ago and everybody from work was going, but we stayed home. A plane did crash, luckily only a few spectators were hurt, but that did it for me.

Don

The modifications to the P51 Mustang are normal for race planes, and the plane is extremely stable with the stubby wings - there are a bunch of P51 racers in this configuration. Consider that the original wing area was designed for combat, including the extra load of munitions (bombs, torpedos, & lots of bullets) plus belly tanks for longer distances. In racing trim the planes do not need that extra lift. The trim at the tail that is being investigated is due to amature video of the flight that seemed to show a part falling from the area of the plane just before the pilot lost control, and they believed it to be an elevator trim tab which helps to balance the control surfaces. Loss of one, leaving the tab on the other side would tend to add a "twist" to the plane, and at speed may have been a serious issue.

The added risk of the Reno Air Races is that they race at extreme low altitude, sometimes only 50' to 100' above the ground leaving little margin for error or time for corrections. Yes, they are dangerous, but these planes are meticulously maintained. I hate to hear the groundswell of emotion calling for these vintage planes to be grounded and the races to be stopped. I have never attended Reno, but I did attend a race here in KC about 10 years back and they are an amazing display of horsepower and control.

You know Roger I am not saying these races should be ban.In all racing to the racers and to the fans there is a risk.It is just the way things are in racing.The one fact that stuck me is in most racing short of air and salt flats racing there is retaining walls to help protect the spectators.With air show racing there can't be that level of safety.It is a safety problem that somehow needs to be worked out.

Originally Posted by 1gary

You know Roger I am not saying these races should be ban.In all racing to the racers and to the fans there is a risk.It is just the way things are in racing.The one fact that stuck me is in most racing short of air and salt flats racing there is retaining walls to help protect the spectators.With air show racing there can't be that level of safety.It is a safety problem that somehow needs to be worked out.

Gary, I did not say that you were calling for a ban, I said there is a groundswell of emotion driving a call for a ban. In the news accounts (KC Star front page, for example (we had a local family injured, and one lady is still missing)) the coverage states, "The disaster prompted renewed calls for race organizers to consider ending the event because of the dangers." It also points out that this crash marks the first time any spectators have been killed in the 47 years of the Reno Air Races, and that twenty pilots have died during that period. My opinion is that the participants and spectators know well of the risks when they choose to fly or buy a seat. Like Don says, anyone can elect to stay at home and read the results in the paper.

You would think there could be a wire screen of some type that would allow visibility and at the same time a measure of defense against flying shrapnel. The sight of that plane hitting the ground and the shock wave with pieces flying thru the air was scary!!!

This is why I no longer go to air shows - at our local airport - I was well away from that flying rotor.

Canadian Sea king crash - YouTube

That Reno crash - makes you wonder if all the mods made were well engineered for the stresses imposed if indeed it was a tab or aileron failure as suspected. I did read on report that said maybe an engine or other mech failure, the pilot pulled up, lost consciousness from g forces, and the plane augered in due to low and unrecoverable altitude

The problem with installing some type of screen is establishing the design criteria that provides sufficient protection but still provides necessary/desired visibility. What is the minimum weight & size of the shrapnel that one considers necessary to block? By installing a screen the organizers are accepting liability for anything that might harm a spectator who now assumes that the screen is "protecting" them. Also, since the races are held in different venues this screening system needs to be portable, and capable of being broken down for storage when it is not needed, right? Sorry, but this is an area where the spectator, like the pilots, assumes resposibility for their own well being. If you don't want to go, knowing that you could possibly be killed (47 year positive track record for spectator deaths at Reno until now) then you stay home. If you want to watch air races there is some inherent danger there, and you attend knowing that danger. Same with other high power race venues, you assess the risks, and attend if you want to be there first hand, and if you accept the inherent risks.

Well two races in two days and two very different results:

2 air show crashes, 2 very different outcomes - Yahoo! News

Is these over reported??. Well I think in this case it is. Well when you consider a crash in a national NASCAR event it is covered.Right??. But on the same day,week,month on a local level doesn't see national coverage.Same holds true for NHRA and IHRA.Crashes happen in racing.The big three NASCAR,NHRA,IHRA have done a outstanding job with rules to protect drivers,pit crews,and spectators.Those rules deem what is safe or not and surly pit passes have a release you sign.I don't think with NASCAR and the type of fencing by spectators accepts liability.Maybe some sort of coverage for air shows like that could be incorporate.I would think the insurance companies really regulate these shows.I think the big three found that out yrs ago and have done everything they can to keep from getting tangled up with the insurance issues.Maybe if the air show racing took into account how high or low the planes where flying and regulate the speeds on that bases would be a good starting point.It would allow for more recovery time if a problem occured in flight.

Racing organizations and sanctioning bodies should be allowed to regulate themselves without interference from outside sources.... Racing is inherently dangerous and I'm also quite sure that the spectators are aware of the inherent dangers of being a spectator. If it scares you, don't go. I would bet that statistically cell phone usage while driving kills more people then all of racing combined in a years time!!!!

Lets not let big brother and/or other outside interests take control over more things then they already control!!!!! To heck with the media hype!!! Death and accidents from any source make good news copy! I would also bet that most who bitch about safety in racing have absolutely nothing to do with the sport! Some people like to go fast and when two of them get together there's going to be a race.....if those watching aren't intelligent enough to realize the risk then they should have adequate supervision in their lives to make sure they don't unwittingly attend such events!!!!

It was a racing ACCIDENT, and accidents will continue to happen---that's why they are called accidents!!!! If some of these do gooders had their way, everything with any danger or risk involved would be discontinued. Racers in all types of racing realize the risk involved, that's why lots of them race to just keep one foot over the edge and take the risks!! Don't let a bunch of uninformed do-gooders take away any more of our pastimes and passions!!!! Let racers be racers---if it scares you, don't go to the event!!!!!

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Racing organizations and sanctioning bodies should be allowed to regulate themselves without interference from outside sources.... Racing is inherently dangerous and I'm also quite sure that the spectators are aware of the inherent dangers of being a spectator. If it scares you, don't go. I would bet that statistically cell phone usage while driving kills more people then all of racing combined in a years time!!!!

Lets not let big brother and/or other outside interests take control over more things then they already control!!!!! To heck with the media hype!!! Death and accidents from any source make good news copy! I would also bet that most who bitch about safety in racing have absolutely nothing to do with the sport! Some people like to go fast and when two of them get together there's going to be a race.....if those watching aren't intelligent enough to realize the risk then they should have adequate supervision in their lives to make sure they don't unwittingly attend such events!!!!

It was a racing ACCIDENT, and accidents will continue to happen---that's why they are called accidents!!!! If some of these do gooders had their way, everything with any danger or risk involved would be discontinued. Racers in all types of racing realize the risk involved, that's why lots of them race to just keep one foot over the edge and take the risks!! Don't let a bunch of uninformed do-gooders take away any more of our pastimes and passions!!!! Let racers be racers---if it scares you, don't go to the event!!!!!

Amen, Brother, Amen, Amen! Well said, Dave! We don't need more regulation in our events, regardless the risks that are inherent. Let's put the responsibility back with the individual, and get away from the litigation element when ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!!

When I think of race events I parallel that to two cases in my life' experiences in insurance's limitations.I do not advocate that insurances get involved.But I am reporting what I have found.Frankly NHRA is a sectioning body that has insurance implications.Anyways-back when I toured mixing sound for live concerts say "X" band would record and then go on tour to promote record sales.Went I first started that the "X" band's tour because of the numerous concert dates would be about 6 months.Good gig for me for sure.A couple of issues happened and the media put up a big stink and yepper the number of shows because of the outlandish insurance riders that where required of promoters cut the concerts in haft.

The other case where insurance has over run a industry is in trucking.No doubt about it.

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

Originally Posted by 1gary

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

Gary, we'll simply agree to disagree on this point. Limiting the speed of the aircraft is meaningless, IMO. The issue here is spectators, not the racing. If people choose to attend and buy box seats for the races they accept the risk, and there's nothing else to say about it, again IMO.

Originally Posted by 1gary

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

If folks don't like the way the Air Show people regulate races, then there is two things they should do:
1. Don't participate
2. Don't spectate

The last thing we need right now is to have the uninformed take charge of more things so they can protect us from ourselves!!!!!!

Guys.I am saying they should make the good show changes to prevent other outside interventions.LOL-did I say that right??.