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Originally Posted by Evolvo

The jobs went overseas because Wall Street was demanding ever increasing profits on their investments. The way to increase profits is to cut labor costs. Now they can blame unions for the high cost of doing business in America, you know organized labor.

A half truth only! We lost those jobs because the POLITICIANS - that's right! BOTH sides of the aisle! Greased those skids so the promise of bigger profits that provide bigger tax dollars rolling in to the coffers, so that they could keep the big wheel spinning...

When someone starts bashing one side or the other I feel despair because they've (politicians) become a reflection of each other! I just can only control my vote! And it has never, nor will it ever go to a incumbent. It's all I can do.. fwiw..

Originally Posted by 34_40

A half truth only! We lost those jobs because the POLITICIANS - that's right! BOTH sides of the aisle! Greased those skids so the promise of bigger profits that provide bigger tax dollars rolling in to the coffers, so that they could keep the big wheel spinning...

When someone starts bashing one side or the other I feel despair because they've (politicians) become a reflection of each other! I just can only control my vote! And it has never, nor will it ever go to a incumbent. It's all I can do.. fwiw..

Way I see it, that's the last clear chance we have to make anything near right again, or turn things around and get the whole country headed in the right direction.......1 vote at a time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to think about retirement! I don't think "they" will let me! Who is going to do any work and draw a pay to be taxed??? They can't afford that!

Regarding rule number 5. I firmly believe we ALL need to just sit down and let Big Brotha carry us. It'll be the fastest way to effect change! And without any violence!

I just don't see where things are all that cut and dried.... It would almost seem to contend that the poor and the unemployed are that way by choice... The nation, as we know it, can barely survive 11% unemployment, it would be dead and buried long before it reached 50% unemployment... Just too many people that hard and fast, cut and dried statements like this just don't take into consideration. What should we then do with those who don't have the physical or mental capacity to be gainfully employed? What do we do with some inter-city kid who doesn't know much about the world other then what he sees in his own neighborhood--public schools are getting to be a joke, especially in the intercity's, the kid probably doesn't have any role models other then the gangster down the street who sells dope. Society tells him to work hard, go to school, get wealthy by hard work, but he only knows about the guy down the street selling drugs making thousands of dollars, all tax free?

But I can't go with dividing the wealth, either. But then that's what taxation does, right? If we're all good little citizens and pay all our taxes and blame the ills of the world on those who don't we're accomplishing absolutely nothing other then more participation in that good old blame game.....

I can't really go with it also when I see the statistics on the number of Vets included in the Homeless statistics. They went for the deal that sez it's good and right to fight whatever war your government deems worthwhile, did all that good stuff and yet for some reason just came home, gave up, and checked out of society.

Nothing to me can be that easily defined anymore, and I've watched the 'us against them' battle for the last 3 decades and the only real growth I've seen is the size of our government!!!! I suppose when I was young and healthy I bought into all 5 of those things and got ahead in many, many different ways---guess I'm just not sure it was all worth it anymore.

Individually, there's just not many of us anymore who really want to do anything to help out others less fortunate, easier to leave it up to the government, I guess. Heck, kids don't see any responsibility to take care of their parents when they become old, easier to just dump them in a home someplace and hope somebody takes care of them. Then also there's a lot of parents who take no responsibility at all in raising their own kids! I think the whole problem starts with people taking on some personal responsibility to help solve problems and quit waiting for someone to get elected to public office that has the magic wand necessary to solve all the problems.

Just like all our problems, there is no easy solution. Eventually people are going to have to take whatever form of action is necessary or this whole dang country is going to just collapse!!!! Freebies and more spending isn't the answer, but then neither is greed and selfishness going to accomplish anything. What do we do with the poor and unemployed, just ignore them and hope they go away? It seems as a country we want "somebody else" to take care of all these problems, but when the government does it things get all screwed up and becomes a huge bureaucracy that costs more to administer then it can distribute in benefits....

Thanks to snow and ice I've been away for a few days. While we thankfully have our backup generator to keep the lights on, run the furnace and keep the refrigerator/freezers going, our ISP also had a failure so no cable/internet. You guys have been busy. Too much activity to comment on all, but it looks like Roger did an excellent job of answering Alan's query. Just an additional comment, if you make it too difficult for corporations to protect themselves, then you'll only have corporations selected by the bought and paid for politicians. Show me a state sponsored oligopoly/monopoly that serves the citizen/consumer better than free enterprise (excepting the military).

As for term limits, we already have them. It's called election day. Happens for the House of Reps every two years, the Pres every 4 and the Senate every 6. 2010 was an excellent example of it working as intended in some precincts. We were rid of the shameful bribe taker Chris Dodd in Conn, Feingold in Wisc., and several more in the House. But the electorate needs to act responsibly for it to work.

As for the "tipping point" we're actually already there, it just doesn't show yet as outcomes. It's not a light switch moment where there's instant results. Here's some data that breaks out where the biggest part of government expenditures go: Our Biggest Budget Issue: Payments to Individuals - Seeking Alpha Note that "payments to individuals" is 66% of spending. When you realize that actual income only amounts to approximately 60% of what government spends each year, we're already upside down. That's without taking in account the things that government is actually prescribed to do in the Constitution, such as defense, interstate commerce, and so on. "Increasing taxes on the wealthy" is a dishonest response. There's no way to show with real federal income numbers where that's ever worked. It can however be demonstrated where it hasn't worked. And for those who think Social Security is some sort of account you've paid into you're fooling yourself. What goes in today, is paid out tomorrow, there is no lock box, no investment account, no other form of savings account. It's a direct transfer tax, just like all the other taxes paid. You can argue that, but you'd be incorrect.......................look up Ponzi Scheme. Sorry!!

I don't believe the vast majority is saying, shut it all down and toss it out / start over. We don't want to ignore the poor / destitute! But many like me are saying, If you haven't paid in AT ALL, then don't expect to show up here one day and live for free! And have better healthcare / dental care than I have from my job!

We cannot afford all of it! That's all I'm whining about really!

Oh, and thanks 1gary for starting this and letting me vent! LOL..

Originally Posted by 34_40

I don't believe the vast majority is saying, shut it all down and toss it out / start over. We don't want to ignore the poor / destitute! But many like me are saying, If you haven't paid in AT ALL, then don't expect to show up here one day and live for free! And have better healthcare / dental care than I have from my job!

We cannot afford all of it! That's all I'm whining about really!

Oh, and thanks 1gary for starting this and letting me vent! LOL..

Sadly Mike, as I'm sure you realize, though others may not, that is how the game is played today. And there is precious little push back from supposed "neutral" parties. The dominant theme can be translated as "If you don't agree to do what I am telling you we must do, then you're in favor of doing nothing at all." We are gong to be innundated with that sort of thing for the next 10 months in particular. The definition of compromise is different today than when we learned it originally.

Well, as the numbers Bob referenced show, we're already past the point of paying out more then we take in..... Scary deal indeed!!!!! and that's just Social Security and Medicare. Looking at the numbers he referenced, health care and unemployment doesn't amount to a drop in the bucket, only 8% and 6% respectively!!!!!

The way of government these days appears to be that no matter what the amount of monies taken in through taxation it would all get spent anyway! Government doesn't only not have a solution to the problem, it appears they are the problem!!!!!

Really good point on the term limits too!!! But when 60% voter turnout in a Presidential Election year gets people all giddy and they call it a record----maybe we're just getting the government we deserve?????

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

The way of government these days appears to be that no matter what the amount of monies taken in through taxation it would all get spent anyway!

Government doesn't only not have a solution to the problem, it appears they are the problem!!!!!

Really good point on the term limits too!!! But when 60% voter turnout in a Presidential Election year gets people all giddy and they call it a record----maybe we're just getting the government we deserve?????

True on all points! Sadly! I've got nothing left so it's off to bed. Until tomorrow good people!

Alan, I've learned that it's pointless to try to convince anyone whose so deeply immersed in the web of deceit spun by our current propaganda ministers.......but I've got to say, you've got it down pat. Just a couple thoughts here for the other folks to contemplate if trying to sort out these ideas.

Republicans are responsible for the lower paid not paying taxes? You're right, but I thought they only wanted to enrich the wealthy...........you know, those that seem to support Democrats more. Such as the wealthiest in the Senate and the House. Those that are supposedly going to donate that Billion Dollars that Pres. Obama will use to hide from his own record and personally destroy whomever his opponent is, as he's done in each of the previous political elections he's run in where he didn't actually have a record to run on. An honest assessment would note that the so called Wall Street fat cats donate significantly more to Dems than Reps. Might be a reason for that, and since your side generally controls the national narrative, we know it's not because they have a heart. And in all the whining about Citizen's United there's never any mention of the Democrat oriented groups that preceded it. But then duplicity in the media helps your side obfuscate that so it's okay I guess. Soros = good, Koch = bad...........and so on.

Please provide the list of all those marvelous labor unions that invented anything, built a business from the gound up (being given a stake in GM or Chrysler doesn't count, that's merely a political payoff), managed a product to market to meet a consumer need/demand, took the plunge on their own to finance the riskiest part of creating the business that their membership hopes to populate...................I would also point out that your list of "achievements" of the labor movement are about 70 years out of date. Today they are almost entirely into feather bedding and political buy offs, mostly to serve the management of the unions while the membership gets to foot the bill. As for "shipping jobs overseas", it's probably missed your attention that most of the businesses that could be identified in that statement are heavily regulated by overbearing government that has driven up the cost of employment, not just the wages, the entirety of cost of having an employee on the payroll. Yes, profit is bad (really?)..............I'd love to see you run a business without it. Profit keeps the doors open so the union guys, and any other employee for that matter, has a door to walk through so they can spend the day complaining about how awful it is to have to produce value for their fellow man. Thankfully not all employees complain like that, but the gullible ones seem more prone to it.

Here's an insane thought for you........This country was founded by people wishing to free themselves from oppressive government. They fled older, ossified countries in search of freedom of expression and performance. Many took enormous risks in search of the reward of freedom from overbearing political structures. What we're seeing with job migration out, and, if your line of thinking prevails, corporation/business migration out, is the modern day equivalent. Will there still be a United States in some form or other? Sure, most likely, again failure isn't a light switch moment, it progresses over time, gradually. But what will be left will be a sad shadow of what preceded. That political process which drove our founders out of the old world won't save the new any more than it did then. That's why we should learn from history.

Alan, we've had some nice discussions over the years, and I know you to be a decent human being, but your faith in autocratic politicians will be all our downfall. Political favoritism is more of a problem than corporations. Roger got that point (has made it himself in the past), you, sadly, appear to encourage favoritism/cronyism that supports your objectives and demonize that that doesn't. We all do to a degree, but to regurgitate the tired propaganda of the day serves only to emphasize absurdity. This nation grew to prominance when we had far less intrusion from government. When people, yes both corporations/businesses and workers, could exchange value more freely to mutual benefit. Now we're to believe that the deterioration we're living as government has grown exponentially is to be cured by even MORE government control?

I don't know--but I think it's way too late to play the us against them game in politics..... It hasn't accomplished much in the last 3 decades and I don't see where it's going to in the future... Whatever happened to the Conference Committee and the compromise that comes from it that incorporates the best of both sides ideas, and the resulting legislation is what's best for the voter's who sent these folks to Congress??? Anymore it always seems to come down to one or the other side "winning", and unfortunately the losers are those of us at home stuck with more one-sided legislation.....

We've somehow got to get away from this "us vs them" politics, and actually get some legislation that is good for the entire country, not just one side or the other!!!! I already gave my opinion on what's happened to small business over the last couple decades, and I don't really see where "big business" and "big government" is going to fix anything!!!! I'm certainly never again going to bother putting a shop together and paying some quality people a quality wage if all I get for it is more expense, more taxes, and more government intervention in my business!!!! It's just no longer worth the effort!!!!!!!

Reminds me of the old statement, "We're from the Government and we're here to help". If you're trying to run any kind of business, large or small, and you get those visitors, you might as well lock the doors and go home!!!! Government oppression and government intervention, as Uncle Bob stated, is why most of our great grandparents came to this country---they must have left to good of a trail, cuz the dang government bureaucrats followed them, and they're here taking over again!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone here is saying that profit is bad, just that greed is. My son was laid off almost 2 years ago along with 20 others. His job is now in China. The place that he worked had a local profit of around $80,000,000, This move was to increase the local profit by $3 million- 20 jobs lost overseas for 3 million additional profit, My job was lost 16 years ago "Job elimination for payroll reduction" and I was lucky. I was one of the early to go and got severance pay . They soon learned how to get around that. 6 years later the company no longer existed, however the CEO and his buddies got 2 to 5 mill bonuses each of those years and even made our pension fund almost worthless. I have no problem with profits but not at any cost.

Originally Posted by 53 Willys

I don't think anyone here is saying that profit is bad, just that greed is. My son was laid off almost 2 years ago along with 20 others. His job is now in China. The place that he worked had a local profit of around $80,000,000, This move was to increase the local profit by $3 million- 20 jobs lost overseas for 3 million additional profit, My job was lost 16 years ago "Job elimination for payroll reduction" and I was lucky. I was one of the early to go and got severance pay . They soon learned how to get around that. 6 years later the company no longer existed, however the CEO and his buddies got 2 to 5 mill bonuses each of those years and even made our pension fund almost worthless. I have no problem with profits but not at any cost.

I would propose that you're in more of a minority than you think when it comes to your statement about disdain, or lack of, for profit. Just by posting on this thread you're showing your comparative uniqueness. I doubt there are very many people on this forum who even read this thread after maybe looking at it once, much less put their oar in the water. Many, if they think about this stuff at all, which in the entirety of the population is a sadly small number (Leno doesn't make up those vacuous Jay Walking segments)don't believe it's worth bothering with because they don't believe they can change anyone's mind or they may feel insecure about their position. Personally I don't think that should be the point, it's more important to challenge some folks to think outside their presets, and reinforce beliefs some already hold that they worry others don't share. And then there's the kiss of death: they might get a "like" hit as you (Edit: and I ) did from Alan!

Part of the problem is that the examples from your own family can't be addressed in a quick, pithy response......................certainly not in a 30 second commercial or on a bumper sticker. It's like trying to desribe to a newb how a carburetor works. They need a lot of additional understanding of a broad range of information in order for the explanation of the carb itself to be intelligible and accurate. Sure, you could say "it mixes air and fuel which makes the car go". Which is fine as far as it goes, but is pactically useless for trouble shooting a problem or explaining how to improve it. And we have many examples of that in our daily discourse.

The "Occupy" group is an example of what happens when people learn from bumper stickers without benefit of knowing anything. Many of them claim to be college educated, but maybe all they did was attend school for a goodly number of years. In parts it's because they've bought into the propaganda. "Get a degree and you've got it made". Work is about doing something of value to your fellow man that he in turn exchanges mutually agreed value for. If someone believes that having a degree, any degree, is all that's necessary, they will be disappointed when nobody else appreciates their knowledge of Advanced Underwater Basket Weaving enough to pay them.

You'll see these Occupiers holding up signs like "End Money". They obviously have no idea of what money is. It's merely an IOU or voucher that represents value exchanged with someone else, not some item that has intrinsic value unto itself.

All of the above is a very tiny iceburgh tip in considering what would be necessary to have a meaningful discussion about jobs in an economy..............and already anyone who's read this far is bored to tears unless they have learned to learn and want to learn.

That's why the demonization of others works; be it corporations, competing political groups, those perceived to be wealthier, fat cats, and on and on. It appeals to basic instincts that don't require thought, only emotion. A politician who sells "I'll give you more stuff that we take away from the evil guy......" has a much easier time of it than the guy saying something like "We're going to have to work hard over a long period of time to solve this problem. Here are the 100 thing we need to do to just get started (or perhaps back on track)......."

Back to your personal example. There are likely many reasons why that whole thing turned out the way it did. It might have been incompetence on the part of management, or an outmoded technology/service/product, or too much government meddling that twisted the market out of shape, or dozens of other factors. Most likely some lethal combination of things. Blaming it on so called greed is quick and easy to say, but may not be accurate. And if we don't have an accurate diagnosis of the cause of a problem it's almost impossible to affect a proper cure.

Again I'll return to the Occupy crowd. One way to distill their mantra is that "We need to take from the 1% and give to the 99%!" This is one of those "Be careful what you wish for" moments. They're thinking within what they think they know about our country. If you expand the field of play to include the entire population of the planet, the top 1% would be just about the entire population of this country. We're that well off in, not just money, but in availability of food, clothing, shelter, clean water, sewage handling, and on and on. I'd bet theat most Occupy whiners would change their tune if it was THEY who had to be taken from......................just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Evolvo

34_40, your correct, the politicians greased the skids, but who greased the politicians (this is getting weird) and got them to make it easier to take our jobs overseas. IMO it was professional lobbyists working for the Plutocracy. OCCUPY CHR

But which group of constituants elected these people to protect and serve them? As I said. The Politicians only want money to spend, it's the easiest thing for them to do and makes them feel some self worth I think...

And if you want to use history and the unions, it was the unions who had to fight greedy corporations/owners and crooked politicians to make a better life for all!

Henry Ford first gave 5 dollar workdays and a scant couple years later, he's hired thugs to beat down a labor effort... what does it mean today? Not much as Detroit is a vacuum!

Like I said earlier, the only think I can control is my vote! It'll never go for an incumbent!

Originally Posted by Evolvo

I hope we're allowed to carry on this exchange, it's fun.

As long as you keep it civil and I see no links to "waywardly political web sites" this thread will allowed to be open. If I see anything amiss, this thread and all future political discussion will be persona non grata on this forum.


Enough said.

Bill S.