Thread: This Is Not A CraigsList Notice

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It was suggested that we start a new thread for our off-topic discussions regarding the state of the union, world peace, cures for physical ailments or other potentially disrespectful subject matter. So with that as our tenet, this thread is dedicated to the free and open dialog of any subject, provided posts follow the guidelines of the forum which we all agreed to when we signed on, and especially those in Bill's post on RESPECT (not the Aretha Franklin song!!) Respect, Respect, Respect!!!

We cannot ignore that there has been some fantastic dialog history recorded in "another thread", so feel free to cut'n paste (the quote wrap works nice!!) text from there Craigslist notice??., and amplify or further the discussion here. As a means of continuation:

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Clearly you were (are) not alone, as the owner of a customer driven business with just 4 employees these days and myself, it's the very same. Unless we do a quality job for our customers, they will never come back, nor will they use the positive word of mouth that drives 40% of my business to my shop. Whenever I have someone walk in asking if I'm a union shop, I ask them "why, does it matter?" If they respond yes, then I explain the size of my shop, all of a sudden, they no longer see it as "big business", just a "local owner trying to keep his head above water". If they leave because I am not a union shop, it's their loss as non of my competitors (within a 40+ mile radius) are union controlled shops either. Some come back after driving around for hours with a preconceive "chip on their shoulder", others never do, most likely embarrassed to do so........Now, granted, while I am not a union business (nor is my industry likely to unionize any time soon), I am not anti union either, having family and friends who are long time members of their respective unions. Where I do get angry is when I hear someone in a union complaining that they are going to have to pay $10 a week instead of $5.00 a week for their healthcare benefits......Why do I get angry, simple, because I pay (and this is just for basic Blue Cross/Blue Shield for my family) over $1,200 a month for mine.......Same goes for those in the union complaining because they are "only" getting 6 weeks of vacation a year.........Heck, I'd like to be able to take more than 2 days off in a row (I am open 6 days a week)........Sometimes a union is a good thing, other times it is not, you have to really see it from the other side of the equation to fully understand each sides viewpoint.
Bill S.

Bill, you and Charlie have both expressed viewpoints that are supported by my experiences on large projects. One of the worst, burned into my memory, was a large (>$750,000,000) project where we had EPC (turnkey) responsibility. As the project got toward the end we were entering a particularly bitter winter period with lots of snow. Labor productivity dropped to near zero, with workers strolling around the site, "slow walking" every job to the point that the project was in trouble, facing penalties that would be in the millions for being late. In a meeting with the union labor broker he stated "off the record" that they wanted to "stretch" this job a few months to give the rank & file a paycheck through the winter, since no new jobs were starting up nearby. After lengthy discussions opening the books to show that the profit margin on that $750M was only 3% (yes, that's $22.5million on taking risk for $750M), and that the late delivery penalties that would be realized would exceed $15million he saw that their position could crater the whole job so he came up with a counter offer. Pay the union hall $2.5M, and they would ensure that the "slow walk" stopped, and would do their best to bring the project in on schedule.

Now my problem is that the rank & file saw not one nickle of that money. It went into a "slush fund" accessible only by the union leadership, billed as "Labor Consultation" or some such drivel. It all comes back to the old quote, "....absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Lord Anton in the late 1800's, not Churchill since Churchill seems to be a sore point with some people). I believe that labor unions served an extremely valuable service back in the Industrial Revolution and the years of our country's expansion, but today their leadership seems to have something other than the worker's best interests at heart. Seems that we continue to keep coming back to the fact that most of our problems seem to be driven by GREED!

"Quote"]Now my problem is that the rank & file saw not one nickle of that money. It went into a "slush fund" accessible only by the union leadership, billed as "Labor Consultation" or some such drivel. It all comes back to the old quote, "....absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Lord Anton in the late 1800's, not Churchill since Churchill seems to be a sore point with some people). I believe that labor unions served an extremely valuable service back in the Industrial Revolution and the years of our country's expansion, but today their leadership seems to have something other than the worker's best interests at heart. Seems that we continue to keep coming back to the fact that most of our problems seem to be driven by GREED![/QUOTE]

I to have seen this not at that magnatude but the same thing. Look what Wis. is batteling right now. I remember working for the meat packers union back in the 60s pay day came and I looked at my check it was $80. short when I inquired what the deal was I was told it was to suport the union in North Dakota as they we'er on strike. They had me by the short hairs. My next job was in a non-union shop. I have withdrawel cards from 2 unions from back in the 60s. Maybe I should get them out and see what they will do for me. The job I left in 94 it cost the company over $28.00 an hr to have the craft people there. Hell at one time they even had 10 weeks vacation...That was a union thing so the company could have more people on payroll. I love it.

Unions were essential when they came into being... A lot of jobs were just one step short of slavery. But, like many good things there has always got to be a few who get greedy and have to screw things up for everyone!!!!!

A good employer will create a work environment that's both good for the company and good for the employees. It's what you have to do to attract and keep good help! If you ever wonder who the good employers are, just take a look at their turnover rate!!!! All the stories of Union and Company relationships seem to be from one extreme or the other with the truth being somewhere in the middle, I suppose. I worked in a union shop for awhile as a machinist. Our steward's main goal in life was to keep the membership informed of what job openings there were in the company, what you could and could not do in regards to difficulties with a supervisor, and a lot of other very worthwhile things. He kept the entire membership informed of what was going on within the company, what new things were coming in for us and the company, and resolved most every grievance that was filed at the lowest possible level within management. Our wages weren't any better then the non-union shops but we did have a much better benefits package then most companies.... I sincerely believe that the company and the employees both benefited from being a union shop. I suppose kind of a boring story, but just a case of a union doing what it could to help the employees without trying to take over management of the company and drain whatever profits there were to be made. I broke my leg in a totally non-work activity (sprint car racing) and when I went back to work the Steward was right there with me negotiating (not demanding) some special considerations from management til I got rid of the cast and was able to resume my normal duties. But, because of the way the company treated it's employees I probably would have received the same considerations from my Supervisor even if it weren't a union shop...

Anything, pushed to the extreme, isn't going to work out right for anyone involved.... Had this Union started making unreasonable demands there's not a doubt in my mind the company would have started hiring non-union workers. Yes, in a Right to Work state they can do that. As employees I'm sure we got a lot more goodies and raises out of the company because of the moderate approach then we would have ever got making ridiculous demands. Our production was always at or above company standards. If your's as an individual did not meet the standards you could expect a visit with your supervisor as well as your steward....

So, who's gonna win the Super Bowl??? I think it's the Yankees vs. Lakers, isn't it????

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

So, who's gonna win the Super Bowl??? I think it's the Yankees vs. Lakers, isn't it????

Now Dave, that may border on being disrespectful to the NY Giants & NE Patriots, not to mention the KC Chief's who played themselves out of the running a looooong time ago!! Let's keep this up beat and remember, RESPECT!!

What's a super bowl? And who doesn't like Winston Churchil??

Sorry Roger, I just don't have any more left in me! Maybe when it's more spontaneous..

oops, sorry. I'm not much into the sports things where they only use one ball!!!!!

Conjunction Junction....Best School House Rock - YouTube


Conjunction junction, whats your function?

Man, just sitting here listening to some of the debate concerning the Keystone Pipe Line. It's been under 'consideration' for more then 40 months now, and still no permits issued!!!!! The State Department has rejected the approval because they haven't had time to study it. Do you believe tht??? The pipeline would take oil from Canada to the refinery's in Texas, the State Dept. isn't sure they could require this oil to be used here in the US and not put on the export market..... and our President, after some "environmentalists" protested it has decided to do nothing about it till after the election!!!!! Canada is saying get off your butts and build the pipeline or we'll sell the oil to China.......

This debate is taking place in the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee. Think I'm going to put an email together and ask my Representative (we only have 1 here in South Dakota) why the heck we aren't building this thing.....

BTW---also, there would be 20,000 to 35,000 jobs created in just building the pipeline~!!!!!!! Wow, no wonder this country is so upside down, nobody wants to do anything til after the election in November!!!!!! Isn't there anybody in our Government that gives a hoot about what is best for America, and not just what's best for them?????

Joining to subscribe and add a couple of comments. Good subjects so far.

Then of course that super duper bowl ...... the Giants train locally at SUNY Albany and the Patriots are not far away. I can't spend Sunday afternoons watching behemoths run into each other until the play offs, so my knowledge of that sport is l-o-o-o-w.

Unions - not pretty where I worked at Schenectady, NY and at GE. A couple of 100 plus day strikes, along with a few in the 10 to 30 day bracket were pretty painful for the rank and file and pretty much destroyed the GE manufacturing businesses to the point some were sold, others moved to other locations and then more were sited 'off shore'. The local plant went from about 40,000 to about 3500 with some contractors as well. 600 buildings of outhouse size up to several acres of land coverage abandoned, then demolished and destroying the city's and a local town's tax base.

Originally Posted by IC2

Joining to subscribe and add a couple of comments. Good subjects so far.

Then of course that super duper bowl ...... the Giants train locally at SUNY Albany and the Patriots are not far away. I can't spend Sunday afternoons watching behemoths run into each other until the play offs, so my knowledge of that sport is l-o-o-o-w.

Unions - not pretty where I worked at Schenectady, NY and at GE. A couple of 100 plus day strikes, along with a few in the 10 to 30 day bracket were pretty painful for the rank and file and pretty much destroyed the GE manufacturing businesses to the point some were sold, others moved to other locations and then more were sited 'off shore'. The local plant went from about 40,000 to about 3500 with some contractors as well. 600 buildings of outhouse size up to several acres of land coverage abandoned, then demolished and destroying the city's and a local town's tax base.

Yeah Dave, around our house my wife is a much bigger sports fan than I. The big plays are exciting, but having to sit through two or three hours for a few highlights? Not generally my thing, either. On the GE/Schenectady history, it amazed me that Jack Welch was being touted as a fantastic corporate manager, selling books on his techniques like Six Sigma (don't get me started.....), and taking record amounts to the bottom line while all the time he was decimating the company, selling off business lines, closing shops, and raiding the pension fund with "creative approaches" to earlly retirement/contract labor. He should have been tarred & feathered and run out of town on a rail, but instead he was on a pedestal.

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Man, just sitting here listening to some of the debate concerning the Keystone Pipe Line. It's been under 'consideration' for more then 40 months now, and still no permits issued!!!!! The State Department has rejected the approval because they haven't had time to study it. Do you believe tht??? The pipeline would take oil from Canada to the refinery's in Texas, the State Dept. isn't sure they could require this oil to be used here in the US and not put on the export market..... and our President, after some "environmentalists" protested it has decided to do nothing about it till after the election!!!!! Canada is saying get off your butts and build the pipeline or we'll sell the oil to China.......

This debate is taking place in the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee. Think I'm going to put an email together and ask my Representative (we only have 1 here in South Dakota) why the heck we aren't building this thing.....

BTW---also, there would be 20,000 to 35,000 jobs created in just building the pipeline~!!!!!!! Wow, no wonder this country is so upside down, nobody wants to do anything til after the election in November!!!!!! Isn't there anybody in our Government that gives a hoot about what is best for America, and not just what's best for them?????

Dave,
Keystone is a project that I have followed personally for almost two years, including personal communication (lobbying) to state and federal politicians urging support and a canned letter to Obama two days before he blocked it. There is a pro-active web-based group that has sprung up across the country, and they are very well informed from an engineering/technical basis on energy issues from infrastructure through supply and delivery. Their organization (technically evil lobbiests ) provides the vehicle for individual citizens to become informed, debate pros & cons, and then promotes individual action through informed communications to politicians. Keystone had become one of their major banners in the past six months, and we're seeing some of the backlash of the decision in continued debate, duck & cover in Washington. What is so frustrating is that Obama's advisors on the labor/economy front were behind the project 100%, but it was seen as a potential alienator to environmentalists, who really had no firm basis for being against the project.

As I understand, Canada (the tar sands are in northern Alberta, a western province) is proceeding with their own pipeline running west to BC, where the oil will be loaded on tankers and shipped to China. Now that really helps us decrease our dependence on Saudi oil, doesn't it?? All for a stronger feeling about a handful of votes. Stinks, to me, but that's just my opinion.

Note: tried to post this last night but the site was down......again.....so the subject matter has drifted along some, but what the hey.....

Good intentions Roger, good intentions.................hope it works as planned.

Okay, so I'll throw a suggestion log(s) on the campfire.

In the discussions about Wisconsin a few months ago some very revealing info came sneaking out. I say sneaking because it was in the flow of conversation and not a headline, nor even a major point of discussion. One of those things that if your attention lapsed for a second or two you'd completely miss. Any here who are or have been employers responsible for payroll will know this, folks on a payroll likely won't. There's a distinct difference between what an employee’s wage/salary is, i.e. what they claim they are paid, and what they actually cost the employer. In Wisc. it was about teacher pay. The average teacher salary was about $62k per year.......but......the same average teacher COST the school district about $102k per year. The difference is the employer share of SSI and Medicare, unemployment insurance, retirement fund, medical insurance, and on and on depending on the state, contract terms, and a variety of other variable "benefits". Not included in that average $102k was the cost of facilities or supplies to support that job position. Now, that average employee isn't lying when they claim their salary is $62k, that's just the agreed amount that's at the front of their mind, it's the amount they see on their W2 for example. This is not unique to teachers in Wisc. it applies to most employees across the country, union or not. Since they don't see the cost of the accrued benefits that represent the additional approx. $40k per year, they don't recognize that they are getting that additional value/pay each year.

So, here's my proposal to get people squared away on reality. No, I don't think it will work for everyone, some folks will just develop a new form of ignoring reality, but to use the school teacher example again, local tax payers may have a different perspective if they readily understood what a teacher actually cost rather than just the lower number that represents the salary portion. Call it Truth in Costs. On payday, in addition to the salary payment, each employee gets a separate notice, piece of paper, whatever, showing the money going to them, or more likely in todays world a direct deposit account, and then each outgoing payment on a separate notice. Week in, week out, month in, month out. On their W2 it would also be reflected, with additional deduction boxes showing total for the year going out to each receiver: unemployment division, disability insurance division, retirement account, dues, and on and on. Won't work on everyone, and will create more posting work for employers who have manual systems, but in the long run it will benefit all as the employee has a potentially greater appreciation for how much they really cost, and how many holes are in the bucket of paying for their job. It wouldn’t stop political demagoguery, but it would make some of the lies that politicians tell today less effective for a greater number of people.

As for the unions, if they would focus on contributing added value to the employment equation, they'd make themselves valuable again. For example, if they ran valid apprentice programs with honest skill grading (seniority/tenure is bunk.....performance/skill is value) where they could supply a reliable technician with some guarantee of performance, knowledge, skill to a potential employer. Imagine for instance if you as a home repair consumer needed a good plumber. As it is today, you hope to find one, perhaps through a referral or previous experience, but in reality it's a crap shoot. But say that ABC Plumbing guaranteed you a certified plumbing technician, grade A (maybe B or C for less challenging jobs). The company would feel better about offering guarantee of performance, the homeowner would feel better about the comparative high cost, especially for a service they rarely (hopefully) need. There are many more examples we could come up with along those lines, but those of you that think get the point. The way it is now with seniority (time on the calendar) you don't know if you're getting someone with accumulated experience of 20 years, or one year’s experience that he's repeated 20 times. Big difference between the two. Unions COULD earn a premium, IF they contributed a premium.

The Keystone hold up should be easily seen for what it is; pure political opportunism. The Pres. needs money for his reelection campaign and there are two traditional interest groups involved in this. The unions that would benefit from having the work to perform, and the enviro nut groups. The union one is easier to manage in that the Pres doesn't have to deal with the membership (actual workers), he only has to make a deal with the union bosses, so the fix is in with them to take one for the team (they believe temporarily, we'll see). The enviros on the other hand are more dispersed, their contributions will be trickling in, if pandered to, over the next 9 months or so.......gotta keep them on the hook till they've coughed up. Besides, what's to worry, an Illinois congress woman yesterday said in a radio interview "What's 20k jobs? There's much more employment opportunity in green energy!"..................sure, like Solyndra.

Dave S.: not trying to provoke anger here, but thought I'd bring this one over from the other thread. Since you and I both decry voter apathy from time to time, though with somewhat differing perspective, I'd like you take on this (and anyone else for that matter). It relates to a theme that will beaten to death from now to election day.....the idea that the President could have "saved the country" if only..................

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

I for one like to hear feel good stuff, really fed up with the doom and gloom bs..... But you're right, it will never happen the way Congress works. A democratic President could never propose anything that would be acceptable to a Republican controlled house. The art of compromise is gone in politics.

I guess it's up to the voters to decide if they want things to continue on this downhill tumble, or if they want to vote some individuals in to Congress who will actually do something for the entire country without worrying about what the lobbyists want done!!!!! Nobody gets my vote this year who promises to 'back the party 100%, don't care what party it is. If this country is to be saved from a total collapse it's going to take people in Congress with a whole different mind-set then the "sold to the highest bidder" bunch we have in there now!!!!!!

I'd say the election in 2012 is the voters last chance to start getting things turned around!!!!!! The status quo and business as usual just isn't going to get anything fixed!!!!!!

Not sure if it was your intention or not, but the way that you've worded that the definition of compromise is doing what the President wants, right or wrong. I realize that's the way a majority of the media frames it, but is that what citizens want/believe? Are we to ignore that a President elected in 2008 with a super majority in the Senate, and an immense majority in the house, who got everything his own party would approve through in his first two years, and who was then repudiated by the voters in 2010 who took away that huge house majority, and almost took away his Senate majority? If that's what you meant I'd love to hear why the Pres deserves to be given a pile of blank checks.

I agree with Bob on the extra paper work idea. Then maybe the employee would realize just what they cost the company besides what they take home every payday. It cost the company I used to work for $28.00 + an hr. to have a mechanic in the plant working...his posted wage was $17.00+ this was 18 years ago..Not saying they should be taxed on it just made aware of it, but someone dose pay a tax on it somwhere.
Super bowl is that like breakfest of champions???

Originally Posted by Evolvo

I just previewed this post, could someone please tell me how to put a quote box around a copy and paste? This HTML thing didn't work!

only way i know how is to reply with quote then delete all you dont want quoted ...