Thread: For Don Shilady

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Again, you are confused. I’ll try to explain and answer your questions:

I do know that V=iR so I was wondering where there was some resistance for the given amp limits to provide a lower coil (+) voltage when running.
You are referring to OHM’s LAW, here is a link that will help you understand it better; https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials...e-and-ohms-law
Try to understand that OHM’s LAW does not apply to current ratings, but rather current loads. Let me explain, a resistor given its value will provide a current load in a circuit and OHM’s LAW applies here. A switch has contacts that are rated to carry a maximum load, OHM’s LAW does not apply here, as there is no load to the circuit. The switches contacts only need to be rated at a higher load than circuit attached to the switch.

Thus my Pertronix Flamethrower coil (1.5 amps) which was matched to the Pertronix kit has been getting the straight 14-11 volts while running with the rejuvenated higher voltage from the alternator.
You are confusing resistance with current, two completely different things.


Perhaps my new found voltage with the Jones 5" pulley for the alternator drive is now producing a higher voltage to the coil resulting in near failure at first and now total engine stall.
Your Pertronix Flamethrower coil has an internal ballast and does not require any other resistor. Are you sure the coil is the cause of the failure? Have you tested the coil?

In particular there are indeed TWO (+) wires to the (+) terminal with the second (red) wire coming over the engine from a starter connection and the other (pink) wire coming directly from the ignition switch.
Yes, you could have two wires to the coils positive. One could be the starter wire (which would bypass the ballast) and one could be the ignition which could of had a ballast resistor that was removed or bypassed when the flamethrower was installed as it has internal ballast. Or, one of the wires attached to the coil (+) could be going to the distributor for the ignitor.

I think I get it now, the pink wire should have the ballast resistor inserted in it since the Pertronix coil is rated at the same 1.5 amp resistance as the recommended Crane coil for the XR1 kit.
Forget about the wire color, it has nothing to do with resistance. Again, you are referring to 1.5 amps when it should be 1.5 ohms. I’m not sure that is correct for the Flamethrower either as it has internal ballast. I believe you’re blending the Pertronix and Crane stuff together (keep them separated).

Part of the problem has been that it was almost three years ago that I finally finished the wiring AND NOW I can't find the circuit diagram so I have to follow each wire the hard way. Sooooo, my conclusion is with that switch and a plain copper "pink" coil wire you DO have to use a ballast resistor (I have at present a 1.6 ohm ceramic resistor)
Yes, your coil needs ballast. BUT, first you need to make sure it does not have internal ballast, if you double the ballast the coil will not operate correctly at all.

and that using the above mentioned universal key ignition starter from Speedway the wire to the starter solenoid gives the full 12 v for hotter spark during brief starting.
All pre electronic ignition switches are configured this way, it is not exclusive to SPEEDWAY.


Looking back, the reason I did not need a ballast resistor with the Pertronix kit was because my alternator was putting out a low voltage but when I improved the alternator rpm the higher voltage ruined the un-ballested coil.
NO, less voltage is not a substitute for ballast, the coil’s current would still runaway and burn up shortly. While the ballast resistor does drop the voltage (OHM’s LAW), wired in series causes it to limit the current the circuit can draw (OHM’s LAW)

Perhaps I could just replace the coil and insert the ballast resistor to keep the Pertronix kit but the XR1 kit looks sturdier to me.
Perhaps it would be better to trouble shoot and find the actual cause before throwing parts and money at it. Have you tested to see if it is a spark related failure?

Thanks for several suggestions. I am comforted to hear from 34-40 that he has changed his ignition system several times and other suggestions have been helpful to solve this problem "by committee" and that is the good thing about this Forum.

I now think I understand the circuits better and note that I bought the "It's-A-Snap" wiring harness because of the hand-holding advice phone number. It now seems that the same wiring harness is available from Speedway with the same "pink" wire and Speedway is still in business capable of answering questions. Probably there is some main manufacturer of the 20-harness and it is marketed by various aftermarket vendors.

So Speedway has a reliable ignition switch which is truly "universal" and it will work with the harness from several vendors since the same pink wire code has come up with all of the vendors I have chatted with.
All pre electronic ignition switches are configured this way, it is not exclusive to SPEEDWAY.


P.S. I note that the (+) terminal on the coil is a source of electrons which are negative as noted on another Internet chat room. Having spent some 30 years studying electrons as negative particles makes me pause when electricians refer to a source of "juice" as positive but now I think I have sorted this out!
STOP!, with the electron flow theory, you will only confuse yourself more.

36Sedan, You are correct! I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Except, and I quote, "All pre electronic ignition switches are configured this way, it is not excessive to SPEEDWAY." What I think you mean to say is "Exclusive" , not excessive.

Nitpicking? Probably.. but Don doesn't need anything else to add to the confusion.

Hey, I only observed that of three vendors offering wiring harnesses the coil wire is coded "pink". Overall your conclusion agrees with the Crane Tech and my present view that a ballast resistor is needed. The box the coil came in says 1.5 ohm internal resistance so what am I to believe otherwise? The Crane engineer says there needs to be a ballast resistor of 1.2-1.9 ohms in addition to the internal 1.5 ohms so that is what I will try with a 1.6 ohm ballast. In my previous career I successfully built several instruments with analog circuits using the "fluid flow" analogy for electrons (except for capacitors). The other suspicious "coincidence" is that my present dilemma occurred right after upgrading the alternator voltage so let me see how long a new coil lasts with the ballast resistor.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I cannot fathom why the Crane tech says to use a resistor in addition to the internal resistor??? We should start a pool about wether it starts after it's installed. I'll say NO!

Don,
I agree wholeheartedly with 36sedan and Mike. In your most recent reply you say that the coil box says "1.5 ohm", but in your lengthy epistle you repeatedly say it's "...1.5 amperes" of resistance.

Your analogy of fluid flow is a good way for pure gear heads to understand electrical basics - voltage is static head, amperage is fluid flow, and resistance is the valve that controls flow or the size of the pipe that chokes the flow, but you're mixing terms and facts to satisfy your position. I believe that you're over analyzing and likely throwing good money away buying stuff you may not need, as others stated.

Hey, I only observed that of three vendors offering wiring harnesses the coil wire is coded "pink".
The color of the wire is only the color of the wire..

Overall your conclusion agrees with the Crane Tech and my present view that a ballast resistor is needed. The box the coil came in says 1.5 ohm internal resistance so what am I to believe otherwise?
Follow the link to “Pertronix Coil” and read it in its entirety; 40,000 Volt Canister Coils Clearly states their coil is internally ballast, wether it is 1.5Ω or 3Ω

The Crane engineer says there needs to be a ballast resistor of 1.2-1.9 ohms in addition to the internal 1.5 ohms so that is what I will try with a 1.6 ohm ballast.
I never argued the need, I simply said the current (amperage) value of the resistor needs to match the coil’s current. And, a coil regardless of its resistance reacts completely different in a circuit than a resistor.


The other suspicious "coincidence" is that my present dilemma occurred right after upgrading the alternator voltage so let me see how long a new coil lasts with the ballast resistor.
Why assume by coincidence and take a chance, when a simple test will confirm.

In my previous career I successfully built several instruments with analog circuits using the "fluid flow" analogy for electrons (except for capacitors).
You are way too smart for me…..

Perhaps I said amperes when I meant ohms and that caused the reaction? I have added a correction to that post. The box the Pertronix Flamethrower coil came in clearly says 1.5 OHMS although they do make/sell a 3 ohm unit. The Crane Fireball 730-0020 coil is speced at 1.400 ohms and I checked (three times!) with the Crane Tech to confirm that the 1.5 ohm Pertronix coil falls into the acceptable range of a total resistance of about 3 ohms when the ballast resistor is in series with the coil. With the Crane 1.400 ohm coil the Crane Tech says that the ballast coil is needed and can be in the range of 1.2 to 1.9 ohms so my Pertronix 1.5 ohm coil should work with the same 1.6 ohm ballast resistor with only slightly less charge at the plug spark. If push comes to shove I will purchase the 1.400 ohm Fireball coil from Crane. It would seem that those who run the Pertronix kit without a ballast resistor probably have the coil with the 3.0 ohm internal resistance. Basically I take the view that the coil needs about 3 ohms resistance and the 1.4 or 1.5 ohm coil needs a ballast resistor for long life. Take a look at the Summit version at:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-730-0020

If you look at the small window under the picture of the Crane Fireball 730-0020 coil you can see the exact 1.6 ohm ballast resistor that is included with the 1.400 ohm coil. My situation is that I am 77 years old and every time I work on the car in what is now getting to be a colder garage I pay the price in stretched muscles and later aches. I use floor jacks to get under the frame clearance but still end up crawling on the floor or prolonged bending over the engine (a disadvantage of a dropped front axle!). Yes I do buy extra parts until I get something that works which is basically what many shops do! I want to get the car running soon and will depend on Bruce Orlandi at Performance Transmission in Ashland due to his expertise and heated garage. Yesterday I replaced the chrome version of the Flamethrower coil with another plain brown Flamethrower that worked before and I got the same brief start of the engine so I am pretty sure I have spark and it now looks like the Edelbrock 1406 needs a cleaning/rebuild which I will farm out to Bruce Orlandi. I will let this group know when I get it running but I plan to keep the Pertronix coil and use the Crane XR-i kit with the 1.6 ohm ballast resistor. Roger, thanks for backing up the usefulness of the fluid flow analogy of electrons in analog circuits (except capacitors!). What we have been arguing over is the ohm rating of the red zigzag symbol in the diagram 34-40 sent. Apparently this needs to be about 3 OHMS total and if it is only 1.5 ohms there needs to be an external resistor in series with the coil. This is certainly a lively forum but no worse than the combative referees I dealt with in publishing over 70 scientific articles. You guys are friendly in comparison!

Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,

Believe it or not, we are only trying to help you.

Not meaning any disrespect what so ever, but your posts frequently come off a bit arrogant. You often post problems asking for help, then proceed to argue with everyone about what’s wrong jumping to conclusions without testing, following up with formulas that often don’t apply.

Frankly, I’m baffled by your approach to trouble shooting, there doesn’t seem to be any logical method to it. And NO, no shop worth its salt will use R&R (rip and replace) as a trouble shooting method, that’s just insane!

There are several basic tests you (or a shop) could perform before replacing anything, otherwise you are just guessing and replacing parts you may not need to (as evidenced by the coil swap). Now you are guessing the carburetor is at fault. You still don’t know wether or not the ignition system is the culprit.

Three basics things that every internal combustion motor must have to operate;
1). AIR, this includes compression, valve timing exc.. Check to see if the carburetor is pulling air into the motor. You can have someone crank the motor and with the air cleaner off hold a piece of paper above the carb (do not seal it off), if the motor is pulling you will see and feel movement on the paper (the paper will want to suck into the carb). If this does not suck air into the motor, there is an internal problem in the motor. I have found many failed timing chain/gear problems by simply watching a piece of paper blow off of the carb (pushing air instead of pulling).

2). FUEL, this includes the carb, fuel pump, fuel filter, exc.. Check to see if there is fuel to the carburetor, with the motor off and the air cleaner off look down inside the carburetor while advancing the throttle, you should see fuel squirting into the front Venturi (fuel injection requires a different test). If there is no fuel, check the fuel pressure to determine wether a filter or pump is bad. A worn accelerator pump in the carb, or a plugged filter and/or bad fuel pump will cause tremendous grieve.

3). SPARK, this includes the distributor, coil, spark plugs and wires. Test for spark at any spark plug first by removing a wire inserting a screw driver into the wire connector that attached to the plug, hold the screw driver by its insulated handle and place the bare metal shaft close to a ground source without touching it (1/8” gap usually works), have someone crank the motor briefly, you should see a spark between the screw drive shaft and ground. Check a couple of wires the same way to be sure you don’t have a bad wire. Still no spark, test the coil (use an ohm meter), next the distributor (look inside for worn parts) and so on until the problem is found. Often a very small part is causing the grieve, a worn distributor cap or rotor will cause many problems with spark.

These are very basic test methods that cost nothing to preform and will save you a bundle of grieve and money. It really doesn't have to be rocket science.

So please, try a few of the suggestions that many of us have offered you, we really don’t wish to argue with you or make your life miserable.

[QUOTE=Don Shillady;533019] Yesterday I replaced the chrome version of the Flamethrower coil with another plain brown Flamethrower that worked before and I got the same brief start of the engine so I am pretty sure I have spark


Don, if you have a volt meter. Test for voltage with the key on at the Positive connection of the coil. I'm thinking the problem is in your ignition switch or the ignition wire. That's why you get the brief start while cranking because the starter has fed voltage to the coil.

Of course this is just a hunch.. and a diagnosis from a long way a'ways...

Originally Posted by 34_40

Don, if you have a volt meter. Test for voltage with the key on at the Positive connection of the coil. I'm thinking the problem is in your ignition switch or the ignition wire. That's why you get the brief start while cranking because the starter has fed voltage to the coil.

Of course this is just a hunch.. and a diagnosis from a long way a'ways...

GOOD CATCH! It could be that simple, may even be a bad fuse.

Room, Room, Roooooooom, Zooooooom!

Thanks 34-40! Initially the voltage at the (+) terminal was only 0.35 V so I checked under the dash and found the ignition key-switch was wired correctly, BUT the "run" terminal has four wires on it and the screw was stripped so the wire to the coil was dangling loosely although still on the terminal. Probably a combination of a stripped connection and vibration loosened the "run" connection. A trip to my favorite ACE hardware store yielded a steel (for strength) 8-32 bolt, a nut for the same and three small star washers. It was tedious to thread the longer screw through the four soldered eyelets but the nut on the back of the connector allowed me to tighten the connection really good and the star washers should maintain a good connection. Originally I soldered all the wire ends with closed loop eyelets but they are bulky when bunched together so the longer bolt helped a lot, all at a total cost of 96 cents! Then I charged the battery for 30 minutes and turned the key. The engine started IMMEDIATLY (!) and I took the car for a short test drive! However the reading at the (+) coil terminal was 11.8 V still without a ballast resistor. Monday morning I will call the Pertronix Tech and get an estimate of how long the 1.5 ohm coil will last with the full voltage. During my research on ballast resistors I came across one comment on another site where a street racer rigged a toggle switch to bypass the resistor for occasional hotter spark but still keep the resistor for usual running. His comment was that that the coil would burn up if the full voltage was used all the time and now with my new 5" alternator pulley the voltage when running is 14 V most of the time so I think I do need that ballast resistor. Well I learned a lot about the ignition circuit beyond just blindly making connections and after all you folks on this forum solved the problem for me. Along the way I got a new fuel filter, a new fuel pump and nice new braided stainless fuel line from the tank to the engine! It is difficult to debug by e-mail and of course if I had found that loose connection first it would have only cost me 96 cents. However the cockpit of the 1929 roadster body is really uncomfortable to debug wires under the dash and one necessary part of this problem is CVS maximum strength muscle rub, which comes in handy at my age! Just as in my previous career writing computer programs
the "error" is always simple when you find it! 34-40, 36-Sedan and Roger thanks for sharing my frustration but still leading to a solution.

P.S. 36-Sedan where is "american canyon", Arizona?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I am so glad to hear the good news! Glad it worked for you Don!!

Glad it's going for ya again!
California

To Ballast or Not to Ballast?

Since I evidently mixed volts and ohms in a previous post (corrected now) I offer a quote from 34-40:

"I cannot fathom why the Crane tech says to use a resistor in addition to the internal resistor???!"

Well neither can I except to say that with the Crane Fireball coil specified at 1.4 ohms the Crane Tech with whom I spoke three times insisted that there needed to be a ballast resistor in series with the (+) feed. He said the voltage at the (+) should be about 8 volts when running although under "start" conditions it could be whatever the 12 volt battery provides but then drop down to 8 volts for the "run" position on the key. Now I have finally made some measurements that 36-sedan advised and here is my data:

1. with the ignition key OFF and a jumper wire from the coil (-) to engine ground (to allow a static measurement of the plug fire condition) I turned on the ignition key to the "run" position and measured the voltage from the coil (+) terminal to ground with a digital voltmeter and found 11.72 volts. Then I turned off the key.

2. With the engine running at idle about 950 rpm I measured the voltage at the (+) coil terminal relative to engine ground and found a slightly jumpy reading around 11.8 volts (1976 SBC 350).

Let me use 11.75 volts as a rough average with Ohm's Law of i=V/R where "i" is the coil amperage and find

(11.75 volts/ 1.5 ohms) with the internal resistance stated on the box the Pertronix Flamethrower coil came in and the result is 7.83 amps. How should I know whether this will burn out the coil or not? The Pertronix instructions give an example of 12 volts with the 1.5 ohms for a rough estimate of 8 amperes but do not tell what the upper limit is for the coil. Finally a call to "Paul" at Pertronix (1-909-547-9058) tells me that the real upper limit for the Pertronix Flamethrower coil (1.5 ohms) is 16 volts so even if my alternator occasionally puts out 14 volts the coil will survive. In my case there are four wires leading to other things on the "run" position so there is a drain to other units and I only see about 11.8 volts at the (+) terminal of the coil. "Paul" of Pertronix says there is NO NEED FOR A BALLAST RESISTOR ON THE 1.5 ohm FLAMETHROWER COIL! Ok so I already have that and should be OK in spite of the Crane Tech saying there should only be 8 volts at the (+) terminal. Perhaps if you have a Crane Fireball coil of only 1.4 ohms resistance you must have the suggested (by Crane) 1.2 to 1.9 ballast resistor. But a ballast resistor is NOT needed for a 12 volt system on a V8 engine using the Ignitor I Pertronix ignition system.
Occasionally I see things from this Forum quoted on Internet searches so I want to clear up this question about ballast resistors. My Pertronix system has run on my SBC 350 for over a year without a ballast resistor and from what I now understand I do not need one. Perhaps if I convert to a Crane XR-i system I would need a ballast resistor but I do not know why since there is only a 0.1 ohm difference between the Pertronix Flamethrower and the Crane Fireball coils.

Conclusions:
1. Pertronix Ignitor I with Pertronix Flamethrower coil does NOT need a ballast resistor (which explains why my unit has worked for over a year without one).

2. Crane XR-i with a Crane Fireball coil is recommended to use a ballast resistor of from 1.2 to 1.9 ohms in series with the Fireball coil.

3. Most old style points ignition systems have either a ballast resistor or a ballast resistor wire in series with the stock coil which is often a lower rating (typically 25,000 volts compared to the 45,000 volts of the Pertronix Flamethrower) than the hotter electronic conversions.

I am weary of this controversy and I hope that I have given useful information here after the frustration it caused me and after all 34-40 was right but I like to know why. Fortunately I can get my $80 back from Speedway for the XR-i kit I ordered and further reference to the diagram provided by 34-40 shows the red zigzag symbol for the internal resistor of the Pertronix Flamethrower coil.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

The use of the ballast resistor disappeared when they went from points to electronic ignitions--------Probably more important is whether the coil is mounted vertical or sideways----a sideways coil mounted in a vertical position will have a very short life because the internal oil level can't cool the connections around the high voltage terminal----------