Thread: For Don Shilady

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34-40, yes I had a good chat with a Tech guy at Flaming River named Kevin. I can/may send the box back to them for inspection and possible repair. I think I will leave that go while my arm strengthens since I think part of the problem is that I have a 13" track racer steering wheel so I can enter the car more easily and the effort to manhandle the smaller wheel in parking maneuvers requires more effort than on a larger wheel with more leverage. Now for the Good outcome of what might have been a disaster. About a month ago I went to a nearby store with the right door ratteling and when I got to the store I closed it tight. Along the way the vibration was enough to partially break the steel tubing link between my gas tank and the fuel line! It turns out that the Bebops body just sits on the floor pan without a seal and gas ran forward and slopped off into the front fender well. I never saw the gas because it was on the passenger side so I did not see it until the next day. By that time heat under the running board apron due to a trans heat exchanger had severely blistered the paint on the base of the right front fender and the forward part of the running board. Well the good news is that I wanted to fix a mold mark at that spot that had not been smoothed before paint. Now I had a good reason to repaint that spot and smooth the mold mark which should have been taken care of originally. I realize now I had a close call with a possible fire so I am lucky in that but it did cost a pretty penny to repaint that part of the front fender. I was so shocked over how I almost had a fire that I did not take a picture of the big blisters in the paint but I do have a shot of the original annoying mold mark as well as the new repaired section. Discussion with several shop guys say the trans cooler under the running board alone should not spoil the paint and that it was that I let the gas puddle up over night on a hot spot and that blistered the original paint. Well anyway I am probably just talking to 34-40 and Roger anyway but I will document the pictures of the trans cooler and the before/after pictures since the folks on this Forum like pictures. Well the pictures are in the wrong order with the NEW RUBBER HOSE between the 13 gallon tank and the line that runs forward from the fuel filter to the engine along the right frame rail but I think you can see how the problem is now fixed as long as the rubber hose lasts and allows some vibration without leaking. Roger need not worry over that tank seat belt since the rumble seat area is now a "trunk" holding a tool bag, extra Prestone, extra engine oil and trans oil and the side curtains (in the summer) so there really is no room for anyone to sit anyhow. The Trooper who put the title plate on the fire wall said nary a word about that seat belt.

In edit mode it may be worth mentioning that the 1" square tubing skeleton of the Bebops roadster body has little rigidty when the door is open and apparently that flex was enough to stress the former steel tubing between the fuel tank and the fuel filter which is bolted to the quarter panel. Lesson: Keep the door latched and hope the rubber hose will flex with possible vibration. The front buggy spring is very firm but the rear coil-over shock suspension makes the ride reasonable and allows softer up and down motion of the rear of the body, hence the vibration when a door is open.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Sorry to hear of these recent troubles Don... sounds like you missed a bad scene by the narrowest of margins! Fuel leaks are nothing to mess with, besides the gas being so expensive it can be dangerous. I don't understand how you achieved that much of a flex to break the metal connection of the fuel line and the sub structure to the body, but it did so the rubber line should eliminate that problem from returning.

I thought your steering had some play in it? Did they (Flaming River) address that issue?

34-40, I am going to track down some slack in the steering. It may be in the spline at the top of the column or the wheel itself. Then there is the universal joint in the column before the steering box. I need to find the main cause of some relatively small amount of slack. I am going to enjoy driving the car for the last warm part of the summer before I pull the steering box off. Thanks for your interest in my foibles.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don, why don't you move that fuel filter underneath the car where any leak will drip on the ground instead of saturating the interior???Looking at where its mounted in relation to the tank and not seeing the metal line you had on it---------OEM type systems of any hard lines that change directions orcomponent mounting will always have some flex zones built in( a loop) to allow the flex of the structures without breaking the lines--------A good example of what I'm saying is evident on probability of every persons cars if you just look at the brake lines up near the master cyl/frame/body---------loops, curls,etc

Car looks nice---enjoin the good weather!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Jerry,

That is a good suggestion. Maybe I should scrap the replaceable filter and use a smaller in-line filter (also replaceable) that would hide under the running board apron. I had a set up like that on a restored MG midget money pit I used to own but I got carried away with the idea of this larger filter and could not see a better place to put it but a smaller one would fit underneath. I don't want to go through the fire hazard again along with the cost of another paint repair. However I would like to get in a few more cruise-in events and then do some mechanics later in the Fall. I will know "when" I can't run without side curtains due to cold! The top shop that made my top from scratch is presently adding a zipper to the left side curtain (like a Jeep) so I can adjust the left outside mirror with the door closed. The best news of the day is that my wife had her first ride in the car and did not find in/out a problem so that opens up the possibility of attending local cruise-in events. Today I won a raffle for a nice nylon T-shirt at a cruise-in at a local Pontiac-Buick agency and last night I attended a Chick-fil-A cruse-in where there were almost 150 cars! I'll try a few more of these local events before I start messing with the changes over the winter.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

That's great that "the BOSS" can enter/exit easily and you can share the experience together. My wife went for a short cruise last week, we went for a short ride and then stopped for ice cream. Later went over to some friends and she said that she did her annual ride and that's enough 'til next year..

I don't really mind tho.. as she talks the whole time she's in there! takes all the fun out of the cruise for me!! So I'm good 'til next summer!

Well 34-40, since my last post "we" had a break down coming home from a local cruise-in but the wife still likes the car because she rode home with me from another local drive-in two weeks later. Due to the tight placement of my electrical coil under the simulated tank eyebrow on the fire wall, the top of the coil broke with bouncy vibration and the problem was mysterious for a while until a crack in the neck of the coil was noted. Replacing the coil fixed the problem but I added a foam rubber "nest" between the new coil and the fire wall to soak up future bouncing vibration. The coil spring rear suspension gives mostly a good ride but the front end is subject to bumps and on the way to the cruise-in we crossed a long one of those new slab-type bridges with a bump for every boundary edge. That is probably what bounced the coil up and down? Now for a promised report on the mpg. The results are disappointing since I had hoped to get to 20 mpg. The stock specs for a 1977 Z28 (3828 pound car) were 14-17 mpg and my mild 350 is basically a 1976 350 built to 1977 Z28 specs with slightly more compression. Sooo, I took a short 63 mile jaunt from home near Glen Allen to Bowling Green Va and back again and the AV8 used 4.201 gallons of 89 octane (10% ethanol). Thus (63/4.210)=14.9964 rounded to 15 mpg. I checked this with my 1998 Sunfire and got 32.1782 or almost 32.2 mpg over the identical route. Parts of the course were traveled at 65 mph but most was at about 55 mph. Noting the tach showed most of the time it was between 2000-2100 I was probably traveling in the 0.7 4th gear of the 700R4 trans.

700R4 0.70 trans 4th gear
3.55 8" rear gear
P235/75 R15 rear tires (fairly wide and large)
Tach Reading over most of trip: 2000-2100 rpm
15 mpg over mostly a rural black top road (Route 2 north, Route 1 south)

I guess when you consider a V8 engine as two 4 cyl engines the near 2:1 gas consumption makes sense but I thought I was deliberately building a "conservative hot rod" with a high ratio rear, OD and big rear tires for a mild V8 in a light car. The acceleration performance of the car is fun but I had hoped for better mpg with the 700R4. In any event I put the side curtains on the car for the winter yesterday and will have time over the winter to think over the range of driving to local meets next summer.

Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Postscrip: I went out to Sonic for a snack and noted one rear tire looked a bit low. Checking showed both rear tires were at about 10 psi! maybe that hurt the mpg a bit but I doubt that it would bring the mpg up over 17 mpg so I will just tell myself its 16 mpg until I can run it around the course again.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Low tire pressure adds a lot drag and could effect the milage drastically.

and that thing has a terrible drag co effient----------------

Hi Don! Thanks for the update(s).. 15 for a pretty conservative build is poor mpg. But having the tires at 10 or less surely dragged it down, but by how much? I'll be curious as to the next measurement results.

And breaking the coil tower is curious. I don't think the material between the coil and firewall is helping, I'm thinking it may allow movement but I'm not holding it in my hand(s) so it's only my imagination of what it looks like (Hint / Hint /Hint re; pics)....

One of my last trips out my car just died! I wasn't far from my shop and my uncle came out and flat towed me home. I later found I had run out of gas! The gauge says I have a 1/2 tank, but when I dipped the tank with a stick.. It was dry! Lousy TPI Gauges! I've had enough of them.. I just ordered a new set of Classic and wil replace them over the winter.

Jerry is correct again. A "flying brick with a 2 inch chop" is still a "flying brick" aerodynamically! For reasons I don't remember I had a 3/16" spacer between the coil and the firewall allowing the mount to flex and pushing the top of the coil toward the lip of the firewall eyebrow. Removing the spacer and adding a foam rubber pad (pipe insulation) reduces the mount flex. I will rerun the test as soon as we get some clear weather here and I can pump up the tires to the 35 psi maximum. I think the 1st-to-2nd shift is too sharp with almost always a tire chirp which may have loosened the seal of the tubeless tires to the rims. Hopefully using the 35 psi pressure will seal again or maybe I will have to remove the tires and apply some sort of sealer to the rims or use tubes as a last resort. I'll post new results when I can run the course again with better tire pressure. The interesting thing is that the car is light enough so that even at 10 psi the tires were barely noticeable as underinflated. Another chore I need to do is to weigh the car but I expect it to be in the 2600 pound range. This kind of open-ended discussion with experts is what makes this Forum valuable!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Jerry is correct again. A "flying brick with a 2 inch chop" is still a "flying brick" aerodynamically! I will rerun the test as soon as we get some clear weather here and I can pump up the tires to the 35 psi maximum. I think the 1st-to-2nd shift is too sharp with almost always a tire chirp which may have loosened the seal of the tubeless tires to the rims. Hopefully using the 35 psi pressure will seal again or maybe I will have to remove the tires and apply some sort of sealer to the rims. I'll post new results when I can run the course again with better tire pressure. The interesting thing is that the car is light enough so that even at 10 psi the tires were barely noticeable as underinflated. That is another chore I need to do is to weigh the car but I expect it to be in the 2600 pound range.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,
Running 35psig may give you better mileage, but it will also prematurely wear out your tires due to them running "crowned" with only a portion of the tread pattern contacting the ground fully. To get the best mileage plus the best wear you need to chalk the tires, drive a short distance (100' is enough) and look at the chalk line. Raise or lower pressure until you see the whole line disappear at the same point, showing you that the whole tire is in contact with the road. You'll then get the best of both performance and mileage from those tires. I'd venture that about 20 to 24 psig will be the right numbers for the back.

Don S., I'll agree with what RSpears said. 35 PSI is going to be to much. The car will ride harsh also. I started at 35 and did the chalk thing. I think I'm at 25 / 26 now.

But, I'd be curious as to what the MPG totals at that pressure!

34-40 and others, Thanks for the suggestions. I did the chalk trick but only at 30 psi. It may be slightly on the high side but I want to favor mileage. Anyway you can see from the chalk pattern that the whole width of the tread is present. I also saw a suggestion on a Corvette web site to just use 5 psi less than the max rating. I also saw other suggestions ranging from 22 to 33 psi. Anyway the pattern looked good to me so I used 32 psi in the front tires and 30 psi in the rear tires and took the identical 63 mile trip as before including a stop at the same spot in a McDonald's parking lot and a quick lunch. This time I used only 3.889 gallons of fuel (WaWa 89 octane) so this run gave (63 miles/3.889 gallons) = 16.19954 mpg or about 16.2 mpg for an improvement of about 8.02%. Thus I will have to keep checking the tire pressure and 32psi front with 30 psi rear looks like about all I can do to optimize the mpg. Of course this little experiment was fun because I got to drive on rural roads but I did keep the speed roughly between 57-62 mph since I saw some traffic pull over tickets along the way. Again the Tach stayed under 2100 rpm the whole trip. On the previous run I hit 70 mph a few times but that is about the top speed with the top up due to vigorous flapping of the top at speed. I also recall seeing a wind-force curve versus speed somewhere and it is pretty steep after about 35 mph. When the Model A body was new most highways had a 35 mph limit so the flying brick aerodynamics was no problem then but when you get up to 60 mph the drag coefficient becomes important as Jerry noted. As far as the ride goes the choice is between "harsh" and "harsher" anyway although most of the trip was on smooth roads. However there is one pothole in Route 1 just north of Ashland that I forgot about and when I hit it again this time it almost took out some of my eye teeth! Well I did not even get to 17 mpg and 20 mpg seems impossible even with my 0.7 4th gear. I do note that the 1977 Z28 had a 3.42 rear gear compared to my 3.55 rear ratio. Thanks to several of you for suggestions as well as some unknown folks on Corvette chat rooms. I look at the Corvette comments because technically my engine is from a 1976 Corvette. The first picture is for 34-40 as to the new padded mount for the coil. I am not happy about all the wires which resulted when relays were added for my dual fan setup and the plug wires could be hidden better but you can see the edges of the black foam around the back of the coil and the mount is now flush with the firewall. The second picture shows the chalk pattern for 30 psi in the rear tires as Roger suggested. One good result is that I was toying with the idea of changing to smaller rear tires for better acceleration but obviously this experiment shows that I better stay with the 235/75r15 tires!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder