37 Ford build--IE: old Header issues thread /37 Ford/5.0/GT40P heads

[randyr]

[QUOTE=Irelands child]

look so hot either. The firewall has been cut many ways and needs to be replaced. I'm looking at the ones from Direct Sheetmetal, Bitchin & Bob Drake reproductions, all with the 3"recess for small block engines. QUOTE]

I have used and like the Bitchin' and Direct Sheetmetal products. And suggest you get the big block firewall. It gives you a bit more room to work without crowding everything down around the engine. Mine is a Brookville and it came with a 3" recess, regardless of the fact I ordered a 5". I needed the extra 2 inches because TCI set my engine mounts back too far and mods had to be made to the firewall to fit. But that's another (long) story.

Hey Dave,
I think you're right about getting the big block firewall. I just got thru measuring my sadly cut up & modified original firewall and it is recessed almost 4" at the deepest part. It would certainly be better to have an extra inch in the engine bay than to be short one, you know? LOL! I also found a couple of cracks in my X-member that will need to be repaired. Wish I could spring for the TCI chassis but just can't do it right now. Will have to make this one safe in the meantime and save for the TCI swap in the future.
Here's a link to a nice 37 with a 5" setback firewall. http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/Minshew-01.html
Hope all is well on your side of the world....
Randy

[randyr]

Here are a few photos - this forum wont allow but 2-3 per post. This should give you an idea. Never know how much dust is on stuff until you take photos. Looks like I need some shorter flange bolts as well.

Hey Dave, here's another question for you.....I assume that aluminum cylinder bolted to the passenger side of your frame is a transmission cooler....I haven't seen one like this before......is it more than adequate to keep the trans cool? I can run mine thru the radiator but it would be nice not to have those lines running up there to the front.....please let me know more details about this product and it's effectiveness.....thanks.

[Irelands child]

Hey Dave, here's another question for you.....I assume that aluminum cylinder bolted to the passenger side of your frame is a transmission cooler....I haven't seen one like this before......is it more than adequate to keep the trans cool? I can run mine thru the radiator but it would be nice not to have those lines running up there to the front.....please let me know more details about this product and it's effectiveness.....thanks.

Randy,
I did take a look at the attachment in the other post of the '37 Flatback - really nice car. I had forgotten how relly small the engine bay is on the '37's - and I even have owned two of them in the dim and distant past.

The 5" firewall really allows you to dress out the engine and have it so it can really be accessible.

That is a transmission cooler on the RH side of the frame. As I have yet to run this car, not sure how well it will do though it is a 2 pass, 24 inch long unit. There is a lot more cooling surface then a radiator mounted unit and it is in a lot cooler environment, so should do well on this car. I ran a smaller unit on a previous car and never had any trans overheating problems.

Here is a thread that shows mine better as well as the manufacturer:
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...mission+cooler.

The TCI chassis is nice but if yours is still reasonably good, then really not necessary if you are on a fairly tight budget.

Chassis Engineering has a replacement set of 'X' cross members - you will be $$ and time ahead instead of trying to repair ancient and crystallized steel:

http://www.chassisengineeringinc.com/page60.html
Then go to p61 for boxing plates

You might want to get their catalog as well.

The weather here is finally turning a bit and the snow is starting to disappear so maybe I can get my car painted and starting to be put back together next month. And yes the Xmas wreath is long down.

[randyr]

Thanks for the links, Dave. I was looking at that X-member kit online the other day. It's funny how what started out as replacing the radiator and the front seal in my transmission has mushroomed into a complete engine & trans rebuild, new headers & exhaust, front disc brake upgrades and a rear disc kit too, new firewall & front floorboards, Boyd Coddington rims (got a great deal on some used ones 17x8), and the list keeps growing...LOL! That doesn't include the fact that I also need/want a complete color change and new interior!!
Now, the reality is my budget is definitely limited and so is my workspace. I live a mile from the beach in Santa Monica, which is great but my place only has a one car garage to work in. Everything I do has to go back in the garage at the end of the day. Removing the body to do frame mods seems pretty impossible at the moment. A variety of less-than-perfect decisions have been made on this frame over the years and it almost seems like throwing good money after bad to try to fix it. I'm sure it can be tweaked a be a decent driver frame, which is what I'm going to have to do until I can do otherwise. I'm guessing the x-member couldn't be easily replace with the body on and the floor removed. I wouldn't want to cut out the rear seat riser, etc.

Anyway, as I babble on....LOL...if I could figure out a way to "justify" it, it would be cool to buy the rolling chassis already plumbed for brakes, gas line, etc. with engine & trans mounts in place and powder coated...I could do the body swap in a day and be well on my way to having a perfect rod....ah, but who in the hell is going to pay for all that??!!! LOL! Given my situation, though, considering time, labor costs, convenience, etc it probably wouldn't turn out to be that much different in the grander scheme of things.....I might be able to get a few bucks outa my old frame to help offset the cost, too.

But alas, I'll probably just have my welder friend come over and do some strengthening repairs on my x-member, install the new firewall, put it back together and drive it a while until "my ship comes in...""

Sorry for the length post.....glad your snow is starting to melt. It was a lovely 80 degrees here yesterday.....but I won't rub it in......

LOL!
Randy

[Irelands child]

Nothing like being caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place as far as space. Luckily, that is not my problem. Not only do I have a 24x30 two car garage, I also have a 3rd stall in my basement (if not mistaken CA houses seldom have a basement) where I do most of my non-paint work. Painting is done in the 2 car area. Not sure that is worth the snow/weather problems we have, but....

I guess that I would have my welder repair the cracks and, if possible, either put a backer piece or fully box that whole area. The frame is 70 years old and pre WW2 roads were just not as good as they are today, even in CA.

Unless you already have them, giving up the rear discs would be a consideration. A Ford 8" or 9" with rebuilt backing plates will generally be as much brake as you will ever need on a 2800# car. It will free up $6-800 (plus another $2-300 for the e-brake lever, brackets and cables) for other goodies as well as several working days of conversion.(says I that have 4 wheel discs on an "A" roadster???) You will need to find a way to run the e-brake cables and mount the lever - a PITA.

Whatever you do - make it a safe driver. I go to several big shows a year and get down on my knees to look at the undersides. It is unbelievable the lack of safe components and how many people don't consider that aspect in the overall picture.

Enough preaching - gotta get to work on a couple of fenders so I can paint in a few weeks.

[Dave Severson]

Randy, I've used a couple of the tubular type tranny coolers on projects, they seem to do an adequate job of tranny cooling. Main reason for me using them was to leave the front of the radiator open for engine cooling, and just keep some of the "uglies" off the front of the car!!!!

[randyr]

Nothing like being caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place as far as space. Luckily, that is not my problem. Not only do I have a 24x30 two car garage, I also have a 3rd stall in my basement (if not mistaken CA houses seldom have a basement) where I do most of my non-paint work. Painting is done in the 2 car area. Not sure that is worth the snow/weather problems we have, but....

I guess that I would have my welder repair the cracks and, if possible, either put a backer piece or fully box that whole area. The frame is 70 years old and pre WW2 roads were just not as good as they are today, even in CA.

Unless you already have them, giving up the rear discs would be a consideration. A Ford 8" or 9" with rebuilt backing plates will generally be as much brake as you will ever need on a 2800# car. It will free up $6-800 (plus another $2-300 for the e-brake lever, brackets and cables) for other goodies as well as several working days of conversion.(says I that have 4 wheel discs on an "A" roadster???) You will need to find a way to run the e-brake cables and mount the lever - a PITA.

Whatever you do - make it a safe driver. I go to several big shows a year and get down on my knees to look at the undersides. It is unbelievable the lack of safe components and how many people don't consider that aspect in the overall picture.

Enough preaching - gotta get to work on a couple of fenders so I can paint in a few weeks.

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the sermon...LOL! Just kidding! I think it'll be pretty easy to repair the cracks and perhaps scab a piece of angle iron along the top of the x for extra strength. Boxing that area would be a pain because the exhaust has to go through there as well as the brake pedal (yes I'm converting back to under the floor). My biggest reason for concern with all this is that my new engine will have a least 100 or so more HP than the old so torque on the frame will be a bit more intense. I sincerely doubt that I'll drive it hard at all but I wanna be prepared in case I can't resist the temtation. As for the rear discs, I know the drums will stop the car just fine but the new 17" rims I got have open spokes and it's much more cool to see a rotor & caliper in there than the old drum....vanity, I know..LOL! I got the Ford Motorsport style kit from a guy on ebay used with new rotors, pads, & e-brake shoes for $250. I needed to redo the drum brakes anyway so I went for the discs. On the front, I've been running the 9" Mustang II rotors for years but upgraded to the 11" with the wheel change.
So, assuming I can beef up the frame enough to hold me for a while, my next big expense will be the firewall.
Thanks again for your input and advise.
Are you painting your own car? I would love to paint my own but don't have a space to do it right now. I've painted 3 of my previous cars including this one.
Gotta get to work.
Later,
Randy

[Irelands child]

Hey Dave,


Are you painting your own car? I would love to paint my own but don't have a space to do it right now. I've painted 3 of my previous cars including this one.
Gotta get to work.
Later,
Randy

Randy
I'm painting my own car using a custom mixed bronze DuPont Chroma Base over Southern Polyurethane(SPI) epoxy and high fill 2K primers as needed (most of the car). I'll then be using the SPI Universal clear coat as my top coat. When I started getting 12 to 15,000 dollar estimates to do the paint on a roadster no less, I bit the bullet, bought the paint and a couple of new HVLP guns - a Devillbiss FL3 with all the tips and an Iwata LPH400 and a supplied air system. I'll sell the air system and the Iwata gun after the painting is done and hope that the Devillbiss will cover anything later. I have done many cars in the past but had not used the new generation of paints so have been on a vertical learning curve with this project. Now if the weather will ever cooperate, I'll get it painted, together and running this summer. These are some of the primed pieces:

[randyr]

Randy
I'm painting my own car using a custom mixed bronze DuPont Chroma Base over Southern Polyurethane(SPI) epoxy and high fill 2K primers as needed (most of the car). I'll then be using the SPI Universal clear coat as my top coat. When I started getting 12 to 15,000 dollar estimates to do the paint on a roadster no less, I bit the bullet, bought the paint and a couple of new HVLP guns - a Devillbiss FL3 with all the tips and an Iwata LPH400 and a supplied air system. I'll sell the air system and the Iwata gun after the painting is done and hope that the Devillbiss will cover anything later. I have done many cars in the past but had not used the new generation of paints so have been on a vertical learning curve with this project. Now if the weather will ever cooperate, I'll get it painted, together and running this summer. These are some of the primed pieces:

You'll have to keep me posted on your process....maybe I'll figure out a way to do my own, too. I haven't used any of the new generation paints either. The bronze sounds nice. Any sample pics of it? I've seen a lot of bronze/rust/orange colors on rods lately. It looks pretty great.
Mine has been a dark metallic red since the late 80's. I'm toying with a midnight blue with cream/tan leather though it would be easier to update the red. My interior is currently all red and the red headliner is in great shape. The styling on the seats & door panels is a little to 80's for me so that will have to change no matter what color I go with....LOL!

I notice the primer in your pics looks pretty shiny.....is that because there's epoxy in the primer, too?

[Irelands child]

You'll have to keep me posted on your process....maybe I'll figure out a way to do my own, too. I haven't used any of the new generation paints either. The bronze sounds nice. Any sample pics of it?I notice the primer in your pics looks pretty shiny.....is that because there's epoxy in the primer, too?

.

The color sample that I sprayed is with my upholsterer - actually most of the upholstery is already done. I caught a hole in his schedule last summer while I was having the chassis powder coated so he agreed to do it before painting and with the stipulation that it was going to be stripped out for paint. I'm attaching a photo. Unfortunately he got sick and blew my paint schedule so I am now way, way behind (6-8 months from where I wanted to be). He still has the seats to finish and I may be giving him a visit this week to see the progress.

The primer is pure epoxy and does spray quite nicely and smooth. Since I'm way past the topcoat window, it will have to be scuffed before I do any more. The next will be polyester high fill primer to level the dings that Brookville manufactured in the body for me. Then PAINT !!! I'll give you a PM in a day or so with some more information. The learning curve is steep but I have really enjoyed coming up to speed with these new products.

I considered red, but it seems that there are too many rods that color already - usually Porsche India Red. Then I said bronze and gold 2 tone but my painting skill level isn't there, so settled on the bronze with a deep tan interior and brown top (which is done but no photos yet)
Here are some interior photos. The console is not trimmed out yet for radio and the A/C control and vent.

[randyr]

Hey Dave,
That interior is beautiful, man! I like the simple design. The flashy stuff starts to look dated really quickly. This will look great for years.

Anyway, what kinda starter are you running? Will it eliminate the additional solenoid on the firewall? Is the smaller starter required for the FF1 headers?

Hope all is well on your side of the world. Happy Friday!
Randy

[Irelands child]

Randy,
Thanks for the kind words on the interior - I went to visit my uphosterer yesterday just as a reminder he needs to finish the seats. By May!!

I still owe you some painting information - soon

The starter is the Ford Racing M-11000-A50 Hi-torque (don't think you need the -B50 super high torque unit) and is a fair bit smaller. There is ~7.5 inches between the mounting flange and the headers, giving only about .750 clearance to the header collector (the starter body is ~6.750, mtg flange to tip). While I didn't try one of the old starters that I had, I'm pretty sure it would not fit. Probably one of the small later model 5.0/5.7 OEMs would though, but why not just start with a new one. You will need a late model solenoid though, but the correct one is about 1/2 the size of the old style.

We are scheduled for 1 to 2 FEET of snow in the next 24 or so hours - and it was 68 shirt sleeve degrees here on Wednesday. Happy spring in the Great Northeast - but Sat. is St Paddy's day and a couple of pints of Guinness and/or a wee dram of John Jameson's favorite distillate will cure the snowy blues.

[randyr]

Randy,
Thanks for the kind words on the interior - I went to visit my uphosterer yesterday just as a reminder he needs to finish the seats. By May!!

I still owe you some painting information - soon

The starter is the Ford Racing M-11000-A50 Hi-torque (don't think you need the -B50 super high torque unit) and is a fair bit smaller. There is ~7.5 inches between the mounting flange and the headers, giving only about .750 clearance to the header collector (the starter body is ~6.750, mtg flange to tip). While I didn't try one of the old starters that I had, I'm pretty sure it would not fit. Probably one of the small later model 5.0/5.7 OEMs would though, but why not just start with a new one. You will need a late model solenoid though, but the correct one is about 1/2 the size of the old style.

We are scheduled for 1 to 2 FEET of snow in the next 24 or so hours - and it was 68 shirt sleeve degrees here on Wednesday. Happy spring in the Great Northeast - but Sat. is St Paddy's day and a couple of pints of Guinness and/or a wee dram of John Jameson's favorite distillate will cure the snowy blues.

2 FEET???? Yikes! and I was pissed because it's kinda gloomy & mid 60's here! LOL! I like warm weather. But you're right, nothing like a few Irish "spirits" to warm the cockels....

So, I don't really understand this solenoid business....I spoke to a fella this morning who sells a Ford mini pmgr gear reduction starter that has a solenoid on it. They include an adapter kit to attach it to my existing solenoid or he said I could eliminate the firewall solenoid by attaching the starter switch to the correct terminal on the starter solenoid. Does that make sense to you? I'm just trying cut down on all the extra stuff that is normally cluttering up the firewall, you know? Especially since I'm putting in a new one!

Hope you enjoy the snow and that it melts quickly.....

Later,
Randy

[Irelands child]

Randy,
I think the guy has you confused and may be himself. Ford is different then a GM car in that the Ford has had an external solenoid mounted "elsewhere" since, well, about as long as they have had electric starters. The GM's have their solenoid mounted on the starter itself. This solenoid, either Ford or GM, works as a really heavy duty relay, one that can handle an intermittant 500 - 1000 amps current draw or whatever is needed to start a particular engine.

Simple explanation. Picture a starter solenoid. There are usually 3 (or 4) wires. Low current (your 1 or 2 small ignition wire circuit) makes a primary, for no better term, circuit by pulling an iron armature up to the high current side of the circuit (the starting or secondary, circuit) which is connected through the solenoid case by the large capacity wires. They are separate circuits and systems - and as a matter of fact, the energized starter circuit is basically a straight line line directly from the energy source (the battery) where the light duty side is the ignition/running side of the ignition switch . They are not electrically connected - ever.

My advice to you is to have this guy give you a schematic and a full description of the operating principles as, quite frankly, I don't believe he is, IMO, going to improve on Ford's 75+/- year old tried and proven system. I assume that you will mount the battery under the floor or in the trunk - the solenoid can go there as well. You just have to run one or 2 wire gauge size larger wire to the starter and longer wires from the ignition switch as well. It doesn't need to be on the fire wall - it just needs some weather protection (in CA - yeah, right!!).

Hopefully this is not confusing - just be very wary of someone that say he can eliminate this solenoid - a Ford starter just wont work that way and running it directly from the ignition switch to the starter wont cause any problems either - it will just instantly self destruct

[randyr]

Actually, the new starter in question has a solenoid on it....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=320093665903

They include a wiring harness to retrofit it to the old style solenoid but my question is why does it need the old one if it has a new one built onto the starter itself? Does it really need both? If I have to keep the system as is, that's not a bad idea to mount the solenoid in the trunk with the battery. I have a trunk-mount battery kit with a 2 guage cable already

Is it snowing yet??