37 Ford build--IE: old Header issues thread /37 Ford/5.0/GT40P heads

[Irelands child]

Randy,
I think the guy has you confused and may be himself. Ford is different then a GM car in that the Ford has had an external solenoid mounted "elsewhere" since, well, about as long as they have had electric starters. The GM's have their solenoid mounted on the starter itself. This solenoid, either Ford or GM, works as a really heavy duty relay, one that can handle an intermittant 500 - 1000 amps current draw or whatever is needed to start a particular engine.

Simple explanation. Picture a starter solenoid. There are usually 3 (or 4) wires. Low current (your 1 or 2 small ignition wire circuit) makes a primary, for no better term, circuit by pulling an iron armature up to the high current side of the circuit (the starting or secondary, circuit) which is connected through the solenoid case by the large capacity wires. They are separate circuits and systems - and as a matter of fact, the energized starter circuit is basically a straight line line directly from the energy source (the battery) where the light duty side is the ignition/running side of the ignition switch . They are not electrically connected - ever.

My advice to you is to have this guy give you a schematic and a full description of the operating principles as, quite frankly, I don't believe he is, IMO, going to improve on Ford's 75+/- year old tried and proven system. I assume that you will mount the battery under the floor or in the trunk - the solenoid can go there as well. You just have to run one or 2 wire gauge size larger wire to the starter and longer wires from the ignition switch as well. It doesn't need to be on the fire wall - it just needs some weather protection (in CA - yeah, right!!).

Hopefully this is not confusing - just be very wary of someone that say he can eliminate this solenoid - a Ford starter just wont work that way and running it directly from the ignition switch to the starter wont cause any problems either - it will just instantly self destruct

[randyr]

Actually, the new starter in question has a solenoid on it....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=320093665903

They include a wiring harness to retrofit it to the old style solenoid but my question is why does it need the old one if it has a new one built onto the starter itself? Does it really need both? If I have to keep the system as is, that's not a bad idea to mount the solenoid in the trunk with the battery. I have a trunk-mount battery kit with a 2 guage cable already

Is it snowing yet??

[Irelands child]

Actually, the new starter in question has a solenoid on it....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=320093665903

They include a wiring harness to retrofit it to the old style solenoid but my question is why does it need the old one if it has a new one built onto the starter itself? Does it really need both? If I have to keep the system as is, that's not a bad idea to mount the solenoid in the trunk with the battery. I have a trunk-mount battery kit with a 2 guage cable already

Is it snowing yet??

Randy
Wot in heck is this guy feeding you - you need 1 NEW style solenoid mounted wherever you want it, no harness just wires. The Ford starter itself does not have a built in solenoid - only GM cars are built that way. Does he think you have a Chevy engine like 90% of the rest? People just don't like to think outside the GM box.

It is snowing and blowing and about 18 degrees - too freakin' cold for this time of year. What global warming?

[randyr]

Randy
Wot in heck is this guy feeding you - you need 1 NEW style solenoid mounted wherever you want it, no harness just wires. The Ford starter itself does not have a built in solenoid - only GM cars are built that way. Does he think you have a Chevy engine like 90% of the rest? People just don't like to think outside the GM box.

It is snowing and blowing and about 18 degrees - too freakin' cold for this time of year. What global warming?

I'm so bummed....I just wrote you a big long post and lost the damn thing somehow....so here we go with the re-write....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3810609&rd=1,1

Now, LOL...check out this link for this starter.....it claims to have the solenoid attached. The guy knows I have a Ford in a Ford. So......back to my original question...don't shoot me.....if this new starter truly has a solenoid on it, would I still need the old one on the firewall (or wherever I put it)? Of course, if it's not really a solenoid on the new one, then all of this is a moot point! LOL

I got my headers from Sanderson today. When I ordered them, I spoke to the owner about your concerns regarding welding residue, etc. She assured me that wouldn't happen so I took a chance on their ceramic coating.....I didn't really have time to shop around to get them coated somewhere else, etc.
Anyway, the coating looks good and the insides are smooth and clean, however the guy must of been on crack when drilling one of the bolt holes on the passenger side header! Check it out....I called them and they said they'd send me a new one...LOL....nothing is ever easy is it??!!

[randyr]

Randy
Wot in heck is this guy feeding you - you need 1 NEW style solenoid mounted wherever you want it, no harness just wires. The Ford starter itself does not have a built in solenoid - only GM cars are built that way. Does he think you have a Chevy engine like 90% of the rest? People just don't like to think outside the GM box.

It is snowing and blowing and about 18 degrees - too freakin' cold for this time of year. What global warming?

Oh, I forgot one thing he said about the old solenoid when used with this starter....he said it serves as a junction box.....


You're right, snow & 18 degrees in March is just WRONG!

Hope you have a big roaring fire in the fireplace!

Randy

[Henry Rifle]

You will need gaskets as well - Sanderson says use high temp silicone which doesn't work - I ended up using Earl's:

Dave,

Did you use Earl's collector seals also?

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

I have my exhaust off the car while installing the seats and seat belt mounting, so I'm going to re-do the gaskets. I used Sanderson's recommendation, but after thinking about it - and reading your earlier post - I'm going to use some decent gaskets. I like the look of Earl's header gaskets. I just have to make sure that they have a version for the Vortec heads.

By the way, the ports on my Sanderson headers (made specifically for Vortec heads) measure 1.5W x 1.875H. The ports measure 1.5W x 1.5H. The ports on the headers are a full 3/8" taller than the ports in the head.

[Irelands child]

Dave,

Did you use Earl's collector seals also?

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

I have my exhaust off the car while installing the seats and seat belt mounting, so I'm going to re-do the gaskets. I used Sanderson's recommendation, but after thinking about it - and reading your earlier post - I'm going to use some decent gaskets. I like the look of Earl's header gaskets. I just have to make sure that they have a version for the Vortec heads.

By the way, the ports on my Sanderson headers (made specifically for Vortec heads) measure 1.5W x 1.875H. The ports measure 1.5W x 1.5H. The ports on the headers are a full 3/8" taller than the ports in the head.

Jack,
My header ports are a bit tall as well - probably in the 3/8" range too big which is the reason I am using the Earl's header seals. They actually have replaceable gaskets mounted inside the metal holders (I guess that's a proper term for them)

I couldn't use standard flange gaskets - for whatever reason I couldn't get them to close enough for gaskets so reverted to the tried and true donut type which fit fine .

[randyr]

Woohoo! It's like Christmas from the UPS man today.....except I have to pay for it all! Just received my new headers, firewall, floorboards and brake pedal/master cylinder all on the same day.....now I gotta get busy!

[Henry Rifle]

Dave,

When I pulled my exhaust system off a few days ago, it looked like I got a really good squeeze, and the gasket was very solidly imprinted. I'm going to give Earl's stuff a try on both places.

Thanks for the info.

[randyr]

Dave, do you realize you have well over 8000 posts on this site?! Pretty impressive, but you're still #2......I'm trying to give you lots of things to post about so you can get ahead of that DennyW guy.....LOL!!

Stay warm, my friend.

Later,
Randy

[Henry Rifle]

Randy,

Wrong Dave. That's Dave Severson with 8000 posts.

Here's a friend of mine with a few posts on a Civil War reenactors' board:

Charles Heath
Mule
Constabulary
Posts: 42420

[randyr]

Randy,

Wrong Dave. That's Dave Severson with 8000 posts.

Here's a friend of mine with a few posts on a Civil War reenactors' board:

Charles Heath
Mule
Constabulary
Posts: 42420

Oops! You're right, Charles. My bad....

Sorry, Dave, I guess we need to push you a little harder....LOL....

Randy

[randyr]

Oops! You're right, Charles. My bad....

Sorry, Dave, I guess we need to push you a little harder....LOL....

Randy

Oops again, Henry! Some day I'll learn to read!!!! LOL Sorry about that.

[thesals]

there is always a solenoid built into a ford starter.... the "solenoid" on the firewall/fender is actually the starter solenoid relay not the solenoid itself, the relay is also a power distribution block in a sense.... the solenoid itself is inside the starter and is what makes the starter engage when power is supplied, without a solenoid it would just spin in place without ever engaging the flywheel/flexplate

[Irelands child]

there is always a solenoid built into a ford starter.... the "solenoid" on the firewall/fender is actually the starter solenoid relay not the solenoid itself, the relay is also a power distribution block in a sense.... the solenoid itself is inside the starter and is what makes the starter engage when power is supplied, without a solenoid it would just spin in place without ever engaging the flywheel/flexplate

I stand corrected - but with the caveat that this solenoid is the device that engages the starter pinion only rather than the centrifugal overriding clutch device that Ford used for many years. The firewall solenoid is the basic controlling device for the starting and ignition system. Regardless , Randy, you will still need a firewall solenoid. If it is a Ford Racing starter, it comes with a simple harness, and which I believe the eBay guy is alluding to - and look at his address - regardless of his statement, is it really new or a rebuild.