Thread: Roadster pickup getting closer

Tweet

I'm not a powder coat guy so no axe to grind, but this doesn't look like an inherent problem with powder coating, but with process. Pops mentioned it in one of his earlier posts, it's very likely the coater didn't follow proper procedure between the base (color) coat and the clear top coat applications and therefore the two materials didn't chemically "crosslink". And since the base coat is so smooth, thus shiny, there's no chance for a mechanical bond. I know paints better. If any of you have painted epoxy primer/sealer for instance, the instructions state you need to top coat it within X amount of time or you'll have to scuff it so that the top coat has the irregularities caused by the scuffing to "hang onto". The base needs to be less than fully "cured" or dried so that the chemicals in each layer are still active enough to bond with one another to form a durable coating. I think the real lesson to learn here is who does the work is at least as important as what the material is.

Don---The wife and I just got back from a holiday in the Carribean, and I checked this thread expecting to see Dans car beautifully finished. Instead, what a disaster!!! Please tell Dan how sorry I am for both him and you. I know the work you fellows have put into the roadster pickup, and this is a terrible thing to have happen. ------Brian

Just like anything else, powder applied properly is a great product, applied incorrectly is a disaster, same as paint.

major difference is stripping powder to fix a problem is alot more of a task than removing paint.

The proper steps would be, just to clarify would be

1) media blast, or sand the frame down to bare clean metal
2) Iron Phosphate wash to further remove any left over contaminate, or oils.
3) apply the Powder Coat filler product, the cure in oven, or at room temp 24-48 hrs
4) sand your ass off
5) apply a second coat if needed, repeat step 3
6) sand your ass off some more
7) clean off sanding dust, sand any blush rust away
8) clean all other contaminates off with solvents, and tack rags
9) Apply primer coat and cure for 1/2 the cure cycle
10) block the entire frame again
11) repeat steps 7 and 8
12) apply color coat, cure for 1/2 cure cycle
13) let cool completely, and apply clear, then full cure cycle in oven

Ok, now the reason you only run them for a 1/2 cure cycle between coats is to promote proper inter coat adhesion.

The way to do this is, while in the oven the powder melts, and for a brief period liquefies. It is a balancing act of curing the first coat of powder
enough so the 2 colors do not liquefy at the same time and bleed into one another, and that the first coat is still tacky enough for the second coat to adhere to.

So
the first coat is applied to "flowed out"(which means is no longer liquid, but still ply-able) then the second coat is applied, and flows out on to the first coat, and they cross-link or "melt" together, and so on.

I have done 5 coats, sent it off to PPG's lab for testing, and had good inter coat adhesion between all coats, and not over cured the powder.

Alot of places CLAIM to be custom powder coaters, or are production shops that do not know how to do custom, and do a substandard job.... then conversations like this start

You can leave powder on for 9 days (maybe longer, just the longest I've done it) in it's powder form, then put it in the oven, and have it cure just fine, so sitting over night is no problem.

In fact when we do car body's sometimes it takes a week from the time we apply the first coat, until the last coat.

Hope this info is helpful

This tale of woe has to be as boring for everyone as it is a pain in the butt for us. I have to say the problem is not the process itself, but the way our particular powder coater did it...........very simply, they screwed up. The general consensus from everyone, including Josh on here, is that they cooked the black too long for the next coat of clear to melt into it. We actually love the way the parts look now that we have blown the clear off of some of them, we couldn't have painted them to look as good. And no question about durability.........the finish is really tough.

Last night Dan and I sat and looked at the frame and weighed all the options.......painting vs getting it powder coated again. We have finally decided that the powder coating is what we need to do on it because of the way it sucked into all the little nooks and crannies. No painter could get the kind of coverage we saw from the powder coating. It went into every little spot and stuck like glue.............except for the clear.

Today I ordered 3 more kits of Tiger Drylac EPO strong, and just have to find someone to sand it for us after we apply it to the entire frame surface. We are going to put this back on the powder coater to solve for us because we already paid the bodyshop once to do it, now it is their turn to put us back where we were before their screwup. Hate to be that way, but we have eaten enough money in this deal already, and we didn't so anything wrong.

Thanks for all the concern all of you have expressed, and I know Dan appreciates it too. I think the four years and a million hours he has invested in this car is starting to wear on him. The fun has left, and he realizes how much money he has spent in those four years, with no running car to show for it. But that will all go away when he finally gets to drive it for the first time.

We didn't get to meet with them this morining, but have a 7:30 appointment to sit down with them tomorrow. I kept a big plastic bag of the clear coating in case I have to go see Judge Judy.

Don

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I kept a big plastic bag of the clear coating in case I have to go see Judge Judy.

Don

I can see her yelling now


yes, have them do the filling, and sanding... that will definitely teach them

sadly I have been on the have to fix a screw up like that side... SUCKS!!!

I like the way you guys have handled this. I think it is great that your giving them a second chance. Are you guys skipping the clear second time round? Boy what a sad course of events for all. Still I'm glad your sticking with the powder coat, from the frames I've seen powdered they looked great including Ken's. Next time I see him I better remember to ask for a ride! Hope this round is the last round!

We've decided no more clear coat Steve. It does have some advantages such as UV protection, depth, etc. but we won't trust our PC to do the job that way again. They seem fine with doing the regular steps, but dropped the ball on that phase.

We have our meeting with them this morning to see what they can do to help with the smoothing part of the filler on the frame. I ran into my old boss Saturday at a car show Don and I went to, he owned the body shop I worked at. He sold the business a few years ago, but I am going to ask him if he knows any shop that could take the frame in and sand it for us. He keeps in contact with that business, so he should know someone. Gonna call him today.

Don

Don, I'm still glad to meet you half way and pick up the frame and take it to Josh (streetwerkz).
BradC

We haven't ever had any luck with clear coating. If it's getting any sunlight it will change colors. It doesn't seem that black does it as much as the other colors but it still looses it's original brightness. We don't use it.
Ken

Thanks Brad. Nice offer. I think we worked it out with them in this morning's meeting. We are going to apply the filler and they are going to have it sanded smooth in house, then we inspect it and if it is ok they coat it for us.

Ken, we share your feelings about the clear. Why we didn't quit with the black we will never know.......but it sounded soooooo good. Today in that meeting he is still trying to blame it on a defective batch of clear powder. He said he had one more job after ours that peeled too, and he swears he personally watched the entire process for correct bake times, etc. One thing that concerned me was when I asked him if he used the same brand products for base and clear and he said no. My experience is you stick with one system all the way through for compatiblilty and no questions later.

We left a bunch of parts with him today like the rear axle assembly etc, so well see how they look when done.

Don

Don,
I'm glad his is working with you, but honestly I would go by and check anything else he sand blast for you before he paints it. Just to have a peak at the clean parts. Don't ask, I have my reasons!
Ken

Great minds think alike Ken. I had the same thoughts that he might just blow off the clear and say "Ok, we did them all over and they are done." For that reason we changed a couple of things, like we are going to have them powder coat even the gasket surface on the rear housing where the pumpkin goes. They had masked it off previously, and in a way that was bigger than the gasket, so there was a bare area. We told them to not mask now.

We also delivered the parts we dropped off today right to the sandblast booth, which is removed from the main building. The guy was starting to work on them as we left, so at least those will get down to bare metal. Finally, we are very intimate with every part that we dropped off and will probably be able to recognize that it is new coating. There were some little flaws we noted.

Shame you have to think that way, but we have all been burned a few times and are less trusting that we once were.

Don

Don
You have no idea how relieved I am you got everything worked out, and under way.
I have felt horrible for offering any advice after learning about your problems.
While I know the process is sound, like any other mistakes can be made and cause problems.

I cant wait to see this car on the road, she'll be beautiful be for long

Josh

No Josh, you and Ken and the other guys who gave advice were spot on. Looking at the front backing plates the other night after blowing the clear off it was apparent this is a terrific process. The finish is tough, pretty, and smooth. Plus I still like the aspect of just dropping stuff off and picking it up later, all done.

Please understand guys that we REALLY appreciate all the feedback, both for and against PC. All of the input helped us to make a better decision than if we had just gone into it blind. The help and nice words all of you posted after the little fiasco shows how you all really care about what happens to another person........for that we also thank each of you.

Putting this into perspective, it's just a bump in the road to building a car. I feel for Dan because he has poured hours and hours of work and a bunch of money into this car so far, and I know it is disheartening for him. But this problem will pass and will be somewhat forgotten later on. Don went through his share of problems when we got his T together..........it ate that valve part way to Turkey Run, the new transmission went south after a few miles, he had death wobble we had to cure, and finally that steering arm that snapped in half. But he took it in stride and simply put a cover over the car until he felt like fixing the problems. I know he was hurt by all that, but now he drives it all over the place and gains confidence in it more every time he uses it. Dan will get through this too, and I am doing everything I can to help him with that process.

Nobody ever said this stuff was easy.

Don

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Nobody ever said this stuff was easy.

Don

That is for sure. It probably is also why it is so rewarding in the end. These cars take blood out of us, literally! But when they're done, it's the individual details that were the biggest pain, that usually shine most later. Hang in there, you and your son's are fine examples of truer rodders!