Thread: PC or No PC??

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First of all, I live in KS where we have all four seasons with vengance - hot, humid summer, and bitterly cold winters with lots of salt and other chemicals on the roads to melt snow & ice. My experience with factory powder coat (PC) is that it sucks - any chip, scratch or other flaw, even sharp inside corners where angles meet, provides a point where moisture enters, and rust forms between the PC and the base metal, getting worse over time until sheets of PC can be stripped off to reveal active surface rust. The protective skids and rock bumpers on my Jeep have been perfect examples of this process, and are now coated with satin black Rustoleum which can be renewed easily as needed.
My impression, based on KS winters is that PC is a nice "fair weather" coating suitable for regions where the temperature rarely approaches freezing, where road chemicals are unheard of, and where sunny days are much more common than rainy days - i.e. SOCAL and the Gulf Coast states, and not much more. Am I off base? A victim of shoddy PC? I really want to know, as right now my tendency is that a quality paint far exceeds PC, hands down.

[QUOTE=rspears;357756] The protective skids and rock bumpers on my Jeep have been perfect examples of this process, and are now coated with satin black Rustoleum which can be renewed easily as needed.
My impression, based on KS winters is that PC is a nice "fair weather" coating suitable for regions where the temperature rarely approaches freezing, where road chemicals are unheard of, and where sunny days are much more common than rainy days - i.e. SOCAL and the Gulf Coast states, and not much more. Am I off base? A victim of shoddy PC? QUOTE]

I don't think you're a victim. My experience has been about the same as yours. Here in So'eastern Mass. we get the triple H summers and lots of salt all winter long. PC just don't seem to hold up. And once rust starts under it, it spreads like wildfire! My .02 cents anyways!

I sure see a lot of things about powder coating frames, etc. Any other experience on quality paint vs quality powdercoat in a winter environment?

properly applied powder will out perform most paints, no doubt.
as with ANY quality coating it is in the preparation of the parts that longevity resides.
most mass produced part are only chemically pre treated which is to get as many down the road as possible, as cheap as possible.
find a GOOD local custom powder coat shop to properly prepare the substrata for finishing, and you will not be disappointed.
NO finish will protect metal that has been scared to the bare metal.
One of the common misconceptions is that powder coat will survive a nuclear bomb, when in fact it will only withstand 2 sticks of tnt

I used to ride a sports quad HARD, clear 60 ft table tops, jump off 5-10 ft hills, and generally beat the piss out of the quad, and myself and the powder would hold up just fine. that's not to say I didn't get scratches, but no doubt it took alot more to scratch the powder, than it would in paint.

Originally Posted by STREETWERKZ

Properly applied powder will out perform most paints, no doubt. As with ANY quality coating it is in the preparation of the parts that longevity resides.

Can you explain briefly the surface prep that you recommend, and anything special that needs to be specified on type of coating, number of steps, etc? At this point I would never powder coat a frame that I want to stay rust free, and if prep and application can make a difference I would like to know. Again, my perspective is mid-west winters where they apply snow/ice melt on a regular basis to metro streets.

Similar conditions here in Ohio, salt trucks suck the life out of any coating.
Our process is to Blast the metal 100% clean of any old coatings, rust, mil scale.
Which not only cleans the part, but provides a nice 'hook or tooth" for the powder to latch it's self to.
then we apply a chemical pretreatment which washes away any dust residue left over from blasting, further etches the metal and applies a coating that seal and protects the metal, then rinse, apply a sealer, then dry.
Once dry we apply the powder in however many stages required by the job.

the process we use is the process the military requires for powder coated part for use in combat. This way it can get a full life of use, and abuse, again up to 2 sticks of TNT (jk)

I grew up in Mn. Mn & WI have the worst salt & chemical use on street than any state, all others are just catching up. Your two sticks of TNT is ant piss to true salt use! Not JK
Military doesn't work on the road where the salt is as much as a car or truck does.
Drive your quad in the ocean a couple of times, then tell me how the scrathes held up! not out back in the sand.
I think a good paint will last longer, once it scratches it won't be held in to grow as well as under paint, paint will chip off easier and powder coating won't.

My .02 worth! Pat

As I've mentioned in other posts, we are starting to have our stuff power coated whenever possible. Don't have enough on the road experience yet to know how it will hold up in the long haul, but I sure like the ease of having stuff done and the final look.

Our PC guy does work for some boat manufacturers like NorTech and Apache Boats. He does their rails, swim platforms, and other parts that are subjected to saltwater immersion constantly. (Look up Nortech and check out the prices on their boats...............not cheap! ) We also are seeing more and more very expensive center console and sport fish boats with the towers, rails, etc all powdercoated.............looks very high tech and classy. Here are the Nortech boats I am talking about: http://www.nor-techboats.com/

Last week the PC guy brought his own boat into our marina to have us fix a running problem. It is sitting on a PC trailer that he did 3 years ago and it looks like brand new. Not one spot of rust or bleed through. So, based on all of that, I can only assume that ours will hold up well, and suspect, as StreetWerks said, properly applied PC holds up extremely well.

Don

what about pc a frame and making be as glossy as paint.

Paint or powder will both release from the substrate from a scratch if the scratch is not covered and eroding contaminates are allowed to attack the substrate (metal)
.
powder is generally more elastic than paint when fully cured, and when applied to properly prepared metal, or alloys usually gets better mechanical adhesion as well. During the cure cycle when baked at 400* the powder then turns into a liquid and "flows out". which means it literally moves across the part to fill in every microscopic crack.

the reason any coating flakes, paint, powder, chrome, etc is because they was a scratch on the surface, and moisture, air, salt, etc get underneath the coating and erode the bond to the substrate.

However PPG, Dupont, Sherwin Williams, who all manufacture both paint, and powder have in my experience always recommended powder for anything automotive where applicable. By these company's who spend millions in research, it is their common consensus that powder is cheaper in materials, labor, and process than paint. More durable, and has a considerable amount more salt spray resistance (our process is 5,000 hours salt spray resistance minimum)
salt spray test is where they take a powder coated part, put a scratch in it an spray it with salt water to simulate the ocean. depending on the company's process it could take from between 1,000 - 7,500 hours of salt spray befor it damages the coating.
this these is in regards to the coating, and not the bond between the substrate, and coating.

we do some werk for boats (not a ton of them in Columbus) that go to the ocean, and the great lakes. I have never gotten negative feed back from any of them. I even have a few who I see at the beginning of the season that are having chrome parts powder coated in stead of buying chrome ever 2-3 years.

thanks.... now I sound like a geek with all this fancy talk, and $5 words

Like this?

Don

please keep in mind this is a sample tile that I shot about a year ago.
it goes to shows, and get handled alot, so it's a little beat up.
This tile has not been wet sanded of buffed, never waxed this is how it came out of the oven.
Single stage coating, wet black.
Don't mind my ugly face, I just wanted to show how reflective, and smooth it is.
A slight amount of orange peel, less then my 03 Chevy truck

First, resize you pictures!

Second, I'm not going to start a my ways better than your way arguement!!!!

But rspears asked the question:

"any chip, scratch or other flaw, even sharp inside corners where angles meet, provides a point where moisture enters, and rust forms between the PC and the base metal, getting worse over time until sheets of PC can be stripped off to reveal active surface rust. The protective skids and rock bumpers on my Jeep have been perfect examples of this process, and are now coated with satin black Rustoleum which can be renewed easily as needed."


STREETWERKZ said:
I used to ride a sports quad HARD, clear 60 ft table tops, jump off 5-10 ft hills, and generally beat the piss out of the quad, and myself and the powder would hold up just fine. that's not to say I didn't get scratches, but no doubt it took alot more to scratch the powder, than it would in paint.

the process we use is the process the military requires for powder coated part for use in combat. This way it can get a full life of use, and abuse, again up to 2 sticks of TNT (jk)

NO finish will protect metal that has been scared to the bare metal.
One of the common misconceptions is that powder coat will survive a nuclear bomb, when in fact it will only withstand 2 sticks of tnt


And my answer still is, unless you live in the snow belt like we do and it snows in November and thaws out in April and we have snow and ice, salt & chemicals the whole time, Not water spray tests, Ice & snow cuts like driving on a rocky gravel road cutting into you car/frame as you drive day after day you will get cut and gouges in the coating or paint, and then no matter how much you wash it, you'll never get the salt & chemicals off and it's already rusting! Now that you have that going, it's only going to grow & grow, so with paint you sand it, and touch it up, But! if you have it powder coated, you can't just do that. I don't care how good you put it on, if it gets a scratch, the salt will grow rust under it!

I never said anything about the way it looks, we have our porducts powder coated all the time, and once you have a defect in the coating... it's there for good! paint, you just touch it up!

And thats what rspears asked, not how it looks!

Pat

When something in the chassis doesn't work out right, a bracket was forgotten in the build, or it's time for a change----which is easier to patch up and make look new???? If it's a component you positively know will never break or have to be altered in anyway powder coating might be ok--but on a chassis for something that is going to be driven on the street or raced, think I'll stick with painting mine....

yes, upon request we can supply clients with color tile of the powder that can be matched in paint very easily by going to any reputable auto body supply store.
we have clients use this process all the time to match paint to powder for items such as plastic center caps on rims, or touch ups/repairs.

I'm not arguing, only offering factual answers to questions, not opinions.
I do live in the snow belt, and restore the finish of products that werk in the snow belt and are subjected to salt, and deicing chemical all the time, and have only offered answers based on my experience's, not opinions, or speculation.

Someone else asked about gloss level, and my picture is fine.

Will powder coat save the world, and bring peace to all man kind... no.

Is it a good product, and do I believe in our process, and the quality of werk we do.... yes.

both paint, and powder have their place in the finishing world, only the individual, or company can decide whats best for their needs.