Thread: title legality?

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Real similar to how we get titles on Hot Rods here, too... Actually easier, cheaper, and a whole lot less risk then trying to fly some fake title through the system.... One of our inspectors here almost turns it into a ceremony when you get the last of your paperwork signed off!!!!!!

Originally Posted by billy zz

i think it had to do with the water mark.
it didnt look like a snap judgement to me.
he explained WHY it was an llegal document and HOW he knew it was.

What did he say exactly?


Don

Originally Posted by TooMany2count

I wonder what that cop would have said about the 48-53 chevy trucks. The VIN(serial)Tag can be held on w/ one of 3 things, clutch head screw, philip head screws or pop rivits & all 3 are correct, it all depended on the year & the plant on which they used. So who's to say your friends car was incorrect other then that cop....joe

from the way he acted (very knowlegable and professional) he probably would have known that.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

What did he say exactly?


Don

i didnt pay attention for two reasons.
1 the guy with the car is not a nice guy so i steer clear of him.
2 it wasnt any of my business

It sounds to me with the "watermark" part that the document the guy had wasn't really a title at all. Otherwise how would the cop even suspect it wasn't real. I have had some badly chewed up titles in my life and they have yet to be turned down for being dog eared. I think there was more to that story than we know.

Don

Doesn't really matter what the rest of the story is....Something wasn't right on the car or the paperwork, the dude tried to sneak it by the man who obviously knows what is right and what isn't, and he got caught...!!!!!! I'll bet the next "adventrue" the guy with the fake paperwork has trying to get a title is even more fun for him!!!!! Having all the paperwork, pictures, receipts, and necessary build information and getting a nice, clean, legal title is always going to be the best way to go.....

I go back to my original statement.......wrong cop.

Don

Depending on were you live titleing a car can be very easy to impossible. There are severeal states were tiltles are not issued any longer at all for cars 15 years old or older. To register in those states all it takes is a bill of sale. Hand written and as is the case here in Alabama not even Notorized. And there are states like California were it can be all but impossible to register a Old car no matter how many hoops you jump through.

Also the location of the Vin # can be a problem. As an example on Ford pick-ups 1953 thru 1956 the Vin was located on the inside of the glove box. Those things many times get removed and lost, there may OR may not be a duplicate VIN # on the frame usually not.

I also question the water mark deal. This must have been one smart cop to have memorized all the different water marks from all the different years or title issue for the state of Colorado. I mean in the lets say last 80 years or so surely the water marks have changed a few times, I mean I doubt if the state even used the same paper manufacturer all of those years. And I have a Colorado title from an Hudson I once owned years ago, and on that title there is no Water Mark at all. Had to be more to the cop confiscating the title than just a water mark.

Sometimes a deal can be made harder than it needs to be. Here in Alabama you could take pictures of each and every step of your build, record each and every origin point for every nut bolt, washer, and part on the intire car, have reciepts for everything. Gather all of this stuff up and take it to DMV. Trouble is there is no one at DMV to look at or make a decision on all of your paper work, and without a simple hand written bill of sale you will "NOT" get a registration for that Hot Rod.

RS

I think this was already posted. This is what's happening here. I'm seriously thinking of selling my cars. My new unfinished roadster will be impossible to register here under the new law.
Ken






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URGENT NEWS ALERT
SEMA and California Agencies
Solve Titling Dilemma for Hobbyist Vehicles

SEMA, working on behalf of California enthusiasts of specialty vehicles (street rods, custom vehicles, kit cars and replicas) and in cooperation with the Department of Motor Vehicles, Bureau of Automotive Repair, Air Resources Board and Attorney General’s office has resolved a complex and threatening issue to this market segment and the industry it serves. “This breakthrough procedure allows owners of certain specially constructed vehicles (SCVs) to avoid the pitfalls of a previously muddy process for legally registering and titling such vehicles in California,” said Steve McDonald, SEMA Vice President of Government Affairs. “Under this process, vehicle owners can avoid a situation that could have led to confiscated SCVs and law enforcement action. Further, the program now permits these vehicles to demonstrate state emissions-compliance requirements.”

Over the years, California’s complex vehicle registration laws have created confusion for hobbyists and the state employees who administer the regulations. Consequently, certain SCVs may be erroneously registered or titled. SEMA has worked with state agencies to address the interests of all parties, including enthusiasts in the SCV market, so that these vehicles can be properly registered and titled in the state.

“Given the looming threat of prosecution that owners of specially constructed vehicles were facing, SEMA’s charge was to find an equitable solution that provided these owners a reasonable period of time to voluntarily re-title their vehicles and pay any necessary back taxes and fees,” said SEMA General Counsel Russ Deane. “After five years of work on these issues, an innovative and ground-breaking solution has been created.”

Last year, SEMA helped enact into law a program whereby the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) would develop and administer a vehicle registration amnesty program. The amnesty program will be in effect from January 1, 2010 to December 31, 2010 and will apply to vehicles that were previously registered or classified under erroneous or illegal circumstances. Under this new law, the DMV will grant amnesty from prosecution to a vehicle owner if certain conditions are met, including the owner filing a completed application with the department.

More recently, a process was established to allow specially constructed vehicle owners that have been granted amnesty to avail themselves of emissions requirements that recognize the unique nature of these vehicles. While there are still details to be concluded, SEMA has reached a tentative agreement with the state to provide for three methods to achieve compliance.

First, an owner can pay all back taxes and penalties and apply for one of 500 (per year) smog-check exemptions. Under California law, these 500 exemptions for specially constructed vehicles are available each year on a first come, first served basis. For vehicles with an exemption, a smog test referee compares the vehicle to production cars of the era that the specially constructed vehicle most closely resembles to determine the model year. The vehicle owner can then choose whether the inspector will certify the vehicle model year by body type or by the engine model year. Only those emissions controls applicable to the chosen model year are required. California law authorizes a $160 fee for each referee inspection.

Under a second option, SCV owners can pay all back taxes and penalties and then choose to install one of several OEM engines and related powertrain components (including specifications for the construction of a fuel tank and delivery system) that are intended to meet California emissions compliance requirements. GM is currently readying an engine package for this purpose. “In fact, by using one of these engines, it is anticipated that owners of amnesty vehicles will be able to exchange their existing engines for a powertrain that represents the latest in GM’s emissions and performance-related technologies,” commented SEMA Technical Consultant, Jim McFarland. However, McFarland indicated that because certain variables are involved when configuring any engine or powertrain package for emissions purposes, some measure of compliance risk is involved when such components are installed in a range of vehicle types and conditions.

Finally, working under the banner of the “GreenRod Project” and recognizing that the demand for the 500 exemptions greatly exceeds the supply, SEMA configured a kit of emissions-related aftermarket parts that met California smog-check standards during a series of tests on a project vehicle. An owner can pay all back taxes and penalties and, if the owner is not able to obtain one of the 500 available exemptions, a “retrofit kit” of parts can be installed. Major components in the kit include an aftermarket electronic fuel injection (EFI) system, EFI controller, exhaust headers, camshaft, mufflers and catalytic converters. For the purposes of the GreenRod Project, the retrofit kit was installed on a high-mileage 1980 El Camino fitted with a 1986 carbureted, 5.7 liter engine. The 5.7 liter/350 cubic inch displacement small-block Chevrolet V8 engine is one of the most widely-used engine platforms for all types of specially constructed vehicles.

According to McFarland, “While the engine SEMA used to develop the kit was considered a worst case configuration, it still passed smog-check requirements. Variables such as engine condition, accumulated mileage, and related factors affecting emissions from these parts may, in some cases, cause similar engines not to meet acceptable emissions levels. Nonetheless, transitioning from a carbureted environment to a fuel injected environment while utilizing the latest controller technology and emissions parts upgrades available from the specialty equipment industry resulted in dramatic and unprecedented reductions in tailpipe and evaporative emissions on the test vehicle. The retrofit kit actually improved performance and drivability while not limiting power in a full acceleration mode, compared to a carbureted engine. It was perhaps the first time a package of specialty aftermarket parts has been assembled for the purpose of reducing tailpipe emissions which did not reduce power or performance.”

“Given the seriousness of the title and registration issue in California, SEMA’s work with the state agencies to create practical solutions for specialty vehicle owners, both now and in the future, is an outstanding accomplishment,” said So Cal Speed Shop owner, Pete Chapouris.



*************

i talked to my buddy that got his vin that day.
that wasnt the 1st time that cop has dealt with the fake paperwork guy.
so yes it appears that there is lots we dont know..

Frequently Asked Questions


How do I know if I need to apply for amnesty?

If you have knowingly made any false statement or knowingly concealed any material fact in any document filed with the Department of Motor Vehicles or the California Highway Patrol, you will need to apply for amnesty. Examples of this would be failing to report the actual value of the vehicle and failure to pay the correct sales tax when the vehicle was first titled/registered in California, or incorrectly stating the actual age of the vehicle. As a further example, a replica of a 1932 Ford built in 2002 is not a 1932 vehicle for the purposes of this California amnesty program. It is a 2002 vehicle. In general, if you have reason to believe that there is erroneous information on your vehicle’s title, it should be corrected.


What are the consequences if I do not re-title my vehicle prior to the conclusion of the amnesty period?

If you understated the value of the vehicle to the extent that the State of California lost more than $1,000 in revenue, you could be charged with a felony. If the amount is less or you incorrectly stated the age of the vehicle, you could be charged with a variety of misdemeanors. Recent prosecutions for this type of offense required owners to pay back-taxes and fees averaging $4,000 per vehicle. In some cases, owners were forced to surrender the title to their car. To receive amnesty, any and all back-taxes must be paid in full and the vehicle’s title must be factually corrected.


What documentation should I take to the DMV office when applying for amnesty?

Applying for amnesty will re-start the titling and registration process for your specially constructed vehicle. You will need to submit a new DMV 343 Application for Title and Registration form. You will also be required to file a DMV 5063 Statement of Construction form, listing the origin of the vehicle’s parts and their purchase price. It would be helpful to have a bill of sale for the vehicle or any appropriate receipts for parts/labor that can be used to establish the actual value of the vehicle. If it is likely that your car had a fraudulent title and will need to pass a smog check, it is advisable to apply for one of the 500 smog check exemptions granted per year by the DMV.


How much should I expect to pay for the “retrofit” kit? How much should I expect to pay for the GM engine and powertrain?

The retrofit kit is a collection of emissions-related parts with specifications developed by SEMA for which a variety of aftermarket manufacturers will be able to supply components. On average, the kit should cost approximately $6,000. The labor to install the package will likely cost an additional $5,000. If you choose to use a new engine and powertrain package from GM, the current LS3 package will retail at an estimated $7,900. GM will also offer a number of other emissions-approved engine packages with a variety of performance options and price levels. Estimated installation cost for the GM system is approximately $6,000.


If I use a GM engine, how will I know if I’ve used the correct parts and properly installed them?

GM will include comprehensive instructions that leave little room for error. If you feel that you do not have the mechanical experience to install the package, there are local hot rod shops, independent repair facilities and dealerships capable of installing the parts. Even when parts are correctly installed, there are variables involved when attempting to meet certain compliance requirements, such as engine condition, other modifications and related factors that can affect emissions.


If I choose to retrofit my current engine, how will I know that the parts kit will actually enable my car to pass the smog test?

The retrofit kit that SEMA developed consists of emissions-related parts intended for a range of engine displacements. It was designed to work with engines typically used in specially constructed vehicles. In general, these would be carbureted V8 engines manufactured by GM, Ford and Chrysler. Although these parts enabled SEMA’s project engine to meet emissions requirements, there is no guarantee that they will allow any engine to meet smog check requirements, depending upon variables that include, but limited to the following: mechanical compression ratio limits, improperly installed catalytic converters, excessive wear (valve guides, piston rings and cylinder bores), piston displacement limits and a mal-functioning EGR system.


Is there a way I can get a pre-certification test check to see if my vehicle will pass the smog test?

Yes. California law allows any licensed smog-check station to conduct a pre-test on your vehicle to determine whether it can pass a loaded mode smog test before you submit the car for inspection at a BAR Referee station. The average price for a pre-certification smog test in California is approximately $49. If your vehicle fails the pre-certification smog check, it may be possible to make adjustments that will bring it into compliance. As with any vehicle maintenance, it’s best to use a mechanic you know and trust.


What if I have questions about technical aspects of this program?

SEMA and GM will be available to provide some immediate technical assistance for enthusiasts who apply for amnesty to help them navigate through the process. SEMA has begun communicating with builders of SCVs and engines, enabling them to respond to the most common questions from enthusiasts. SEMA will also compile additional guidance information. These approaches will help expedite solutions to SCV owners seeking to meet California smog-check requirements.

For more information, please contact Ethan Landesman at ethanl@sema.org

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Doesn't really matter what the rest of the story is....Something wasn't right on the car or the paperwork, the dude tried to sneak it by the man who obviously knows what is right and what isn't, and he got caught...!!!!!! I'll bet the next "adventrue" the guy with the fake paperwork has trying to get a title is even more fun for him!!!!! Having all the paperwork, pictures, receipts, and necessary build information and getting a nice, clean, legal title is always going to be the best way to go.....

i know i can get mine nice and legal.
i just watched it happen and am doing it EXACTLY the same way.

Ken: I'd love to have you for a neighbor here in sunny, carefree Florida!

Your cars would be considered "sane" here.

Don

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Ken: I'd love to have you for a neighbor here in sunny, carefree Florida!

Your cars would be considered "sane" here.

Don

Don
I would really enjoy you and yours sons as neighbors also. We have had this conversation more than once.
For me I have really had it with our government, past and present. I'm going to make a change that is better for my family and soon.
Uncle Bob, if you read this would you give your interpretation on the new SEMA and DMV agreement for Californian's?
Ken

California might have actually done it this time.... I have no idea how many dollars are generated throughout the state because of and in support of Hot Rodding, but the idiots running the place might have just given it all away.....

Ken, you're certainly not the first one I've heard from that is getting ready to pack up and leave the state... Just chatted with a friend in Sacramento on Friday, him, his family, his business, and 10 employees are in the process of moving out--they're going to the Reno area... California just doesn't seem to realize that idiotic money grubbing laws like these are driving out a lot of people, and a lot of these people are taking companies and jobs with them.... My pal Gary is taking employees with them who want to move, but I would imagine he's one of the few that will do that.... I hope the people running things out there have enough money to pay all the bills, cuz they sure seem to be doing their best to drive away a lot of revenue!!!!....All in the name of getting a few Hot Rodders with their "gas guzzling, pollution packed, non-green" cars off the road???????????????.... I guess when the Hot Rodders all move out, life there will be perfect for the electric car brigade, huh????