Thread: title legality?

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sold all my cars on Racingjunk.com. they do have section for street cars, and they are world wide sold my 69 camaro to a guy in Germany.

Bill,
Wow, that really stinks, at least ca. could have pulled this in a good economic time.
Ken

Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Uncle Bob, if you read this would you give your interpretation on the new SEMA and DMV agreement for Californian's?
Ken

The short answer is one I think you hit on in your comment on pg 4 I think it was. The primary motivator for the state is tax revenue. They are convinced, and not altogether unfounded, that there is a lot of "lying" about valuation at registration time. Just as we're seeing on the federal level it's about power and control..............the path, be it "illegal" registration, environmental concerns, or "health care", are just a means of controlling the populace. But they need tax revenue to fund their endeavors as government doesn't produce anything of intrinsic value.

To look at it in the sense of other broader comments made here, blaming SEMA for playing the game is to misunderstand what business people are all about. Ken, I know you understand this because you've been a successful small business entrepreneur. Like others who've taken on the same/similar challenges, business owners are problem solvers. They confront issues that put obstacles in their way and figure out a way to come out ahead. The politicians see that behavior and exploit it for their own gain. Environmental controls started out modest enough, folks of good intention and citizenship bought into the basic concepts and "played along". All in the name of "it's the right thing to do". To a degree that assessment is accurate. The rub comes when the reasonable becomes the foundation for progression to the unreasonable. We're in the middle of that on medical coverage/cost/supply/demand. Any reasonable evaluation of what's being proposed shows that the REAL issues aren't being addressed. But the goal isn't to fix the healthcare system, it's to impose maximum control over the majority of the populace. It's the same for the environmental issues, and the slap down over title/registration issues are related from the funding side. But I'm getting into the weeds where most are either afraid to go, too lazy to recognize, or too overwhelmed to want to engage.

Ken, do you remember a conversation we had over lunch a couple years ago? I mentioned how many businesses had relocated to Vegas over the past decade. It's a matter of finding the tipping point. Those folks had a lower point than yours. Dave's examples show more folks are reaching theirs as well. I don't know what will happen, but it wouldn't surprise me to see this exercise really hurting our hobby. As an example, with the state of the economy what it is, glass '32s are really down in market value from where they were a couple years ago. That declining trend has been showing for over a year now. It feels like someone threw a switch a couple months ago and sales have declined even more of late. If the noose is tightening even more in Calif. where there are a lot of these kinds of cars, and the owners react by putting their cars on the market, we'll be in an even more overwhelmed supply/demand situation. Prices will crash. "Real" cars, such as a genuine, high quality '32 coupe or roadster, will probably retain better value because, like fine art, there are only so many and those that have enough money will continue to value the rare/unique/limited availability highly. Same old formula really. It works in art, rare coins, and other valuable collector items. Ironically, the same political faction that is depressing the value of the dollar, and is seeking greater control of the masses, are driving "investors" to these none dollar investments as a hedge against declining dollar value.

As for selling your, or any, incomplete project, it's a tough market slice in decent markets, tougher still in today's world. Trades seem to be better than cash right now unless you get very fortunate in finding someone who's the absolute "right" customer for what you've got. There's probably someone out there that would love to have your car, and be willing to put up with what it takes to make it work. Finding them is the challenge. To that end I agree with Bill that ebay is probably the single largest worldwide marketplace, though others may offer some opportunities as well. Bidding is pretty puny right now, but the exposure is worth a lot. The more people you can engage the better your chances of putting together a deal, especially if you're flexible on how/what you'll take as payment. We're living in challenging times, and the horizon doesn't look like it will get better given the current political climate.

It's tough to work out the full thought process in brief postings online. You've got my number. If you think that talking it out will help, call me at your convenience. I'll do whatever I can.

Here is another problem. In my red roadster I used a Donovan block, in my truck i used a block 'Lil John Buterra gave me out of his Indy car. Nether engine has smog identification certificates. Neither car will pass even if I went in now under the amnesty plan. I have come to the conclusion that Californian's can't be Hot Rodders any longer. All you have to do is bolt things together from there sheet of paper.
Ken

At one time Florida tried kinda sorta a similar deal. They were sure they were missing out on sales taxes on used cars. Lets say you buy a 2000 Chevy for $1000.00 and you put that down on the bill of sale and pay the tax on that amount. What would happen is that some pencil pusher in Tallahassee would then look at the sale and look up the book value of a 2000 Chevy and if it was more they would send you a letter demanding the extra tax.

It happened to me. I bought a Lincoln Towncar that had a blown motor for something like $ 700.00. A month or so later I get a letter telling me that my 1990 Lincoln Towncar is actually worth $ 3000.00, so I owe them tax on the difference of $ 2300.00. I wrote them a letter and told them that not ALL 1990 Lincoln Towncars are worth the same amount of money, one with a blown engine like the one I bought was worth $ 700.00 and that is what I paid. They were putting the burdon of proving you were right on the buyer....you were immediately wrong until you proved otherwise.

I never heard back from them, and I think that program was short lived, but I can see where some genius came up with it because of the money they could shake out of people who didn't stand up and call them on it. Sounds like that is what California is trying to do to you guys out there.


Don

Ken, I hope you set back and ponder your personal situation and these great sounding cars of yours, before you do something that can't be undone. There's always a way, even in California..

Now with that said if you do decide to test the waters of selling them, by far one of the very best web-sites is Racingjunk.com

http://www.racingjunk.com/

I have used this site to buy and trade cars several times. The response has always been phemonenal. Unlike E-Bay ads are free once you register which is also free.

I hope you decide to work a way to a solution other than selling. If you do decide to list on racing junk you can always change your mind, which in your case you probably will do. At least I hope thats the case.

Roland

Roland- thank you

Don- See, the real culprit out here was Boyd Cottington. He apparently would build a car let's say for $500,000 then license it in Missouri for $20,000 then transfer it back here with the $20,000 price tag and the costumer only paid taxes on the $20,000. That's how all this started.
Ken

I wondered about that "raid" thing and all that went with it. So that is what started it all. I never really knew what all that was about.

Don

i was just wanting to know if this title thing was as bare faced illegal as it looked.
the answer is yes.

Not necessarily............there are different shades of "illegal." Think about this..........the vast majority of people who may do something like that are hard working, tax paying, family people who simply like to tinker with old cars. Cars that for the most part have been cast aside and sit rotting in some back yard or field, and that are contributing nothing to our economy.

Now, along comes Mr or Mrs Hot Rodder or Restorer and they begin the process of bringing that rusting hulk back to life. To do that they buy parts........lots of parts which are usually made and sold by American companies and also that taxes are paid on, both on the wholesale and retail level. It took jobs to make those parts, and the workers earned money and paid taxes and bought stuff that they paid taxes on.

Finally, the car is ready to drive and the owner pays his sales tax, license fees, insurance fees,and starts driving it. Now he buys gas that has road taxes on it, and buys more parts, also with more taxes on them. So what has happened is that something that was just sitting idle has created a whole new level of money being spent that goes to stimulate our economy.

I see it as Patriotism! (so where is the harm done??)


Don

stolen ,parted out cars jack up everyones insurance rates.

using hot parts is bad juju.

i am not flaming ANYBODY.

billy, there's no question that theft is unacceptable and ultimately bad for everyone. But I'm with Don for the most part philosophically on this. The vast majority of rodders aren't stealing stuff and hiding it with phony paperwork. They're just trying to enjoy their hobby with the least amount of hassle. At worst they're performing a tax protest. There was once a nation formed by tax protesters who ousted an oppressive government, that nation went on to do a lot of good things for the world, but then....................well, we'll see......

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

At one time Florida tried kinda sorta a similar deal. They were sure they were missing out on sales taxes on used cars. Lets say you buy a 2000 Chevy for $1000.00 and you put that down on the bill of sale and pay the tax on that amount. What would happen is that some pencil pusher in Tallahassee would then look at the sale and look up the book value of a 2000 Chevy and if it was more they would send you a letter demanding the extra tax.
Don

That's basically how it is here in Mass., except they check bluebook right at the time of registration! Don't like it? Then don't even think about registering! A couple of exemptions like transfer of ownership to a family member and that kind of thing. Once I had a car given to me by an uncle for a dollar. It drove the registry crazy to charge me the sales tax of five cents! The car was a gift and they couldn't do anything about it!
I wouldn't try that today tho'! They have absolutely NO humor in that office!

All this made me think of the Chilli Pepper's song, "CALIFORNICATION". I hope this doesn't catch fire in the rest of the country ....................

Good luck and best wishes to all the west coast rodders out there.

Kitz

Gee, Bob P and I ACTUALLY agree on something! That made my day. Now if I can get him to start posting pictures of GOOD LOOKING women.

Here is another problem I see with the States trying to appraise our cars: We buy a $ 500 junker, put lots of parts on it that we pay sales tax on (for the most part) then we supply our talents and labor to it for X number of years and this car now becomes a work of art that is worth $ 30,000.00 (to pick a number) Now they want us to pay tax AGAIN on that inflated figure.

I think that was why a whole bunch of tea got dumped into Boston Harbor some years back and fueled a little "misunderstanding" between us and some folks overseas.

Don