Thread: Hemi guys, need your advice.

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Thanks a lot guys for that info. We'll have to check the back of the crank, we just assumed it would have a hole for the pilot bearing but now you have me wondering. Good news about any machine shop being able to do the work. Down here in "Mayberry" we don't have a lot of speciality shops to choose from, but this new guy I ran across who did my pulley seems to know his stuff. At least if his 8 second S10 drag car means anything about his skill level.

Also good info about the odd sized lifters. They and the cam seemed to be in very good condition. The lifters popped right out of their bores with no mushrooming or anything evident. I have some old motor manuals and dug out one that covers this year motor and it said if there is a maltese cross stamped near the serial number it means the bearings are undersize stock from the factory............we have no cross on our block and there were no markings on the back of the bearings indicating size, so it looks like a standard sized block.

Don probably hasn't seen this thread yet as he works 2 jobs a day and doesn't get on here much, but I'll alert him to all the good info all of you have provided and also to your build threads Mike. Those were VERY detailed and useful.

Jerry, you mention the hemi and the flathead. What struck us as odd was that once we got those big heads off of this engine how similar in appearance and size the bare block is to a flathead. The 291 is really a compact engine, but man is it beefy. No wonder they held up to the abuses you racers put on them.

Don

They were also used a lot for industrial, military, pumps, street sweepers, ground generators at airports, stationery pumps/gens etc

On our race cars the pilot bearing fit in the flywheel hole and didn't go into the crank , I don't remember if that was stock or top fuel clutch thingie, but you might check that out before you have the crank drilled/machined.

Yes the size of the flathead and hemi take up about the same room except the hemi has a rear distributor --will be a less than one hour swap--have done them in the dragster in less, but was younger then

We talk about that all the time, how you race guys change or rebuild an engine between rounds. It takes me a week to pull one out and replace it, guess I wouldn't make the next round, huh?

Don

Back THEN, in the OLD DAYS, there was 3 of us---Me, Keeling, the driver, and sometimes maybe a couple of people hanging around ---

We generally had 45 minutes, now they have 75 minutes plus a platoon of troops and several built up engines.

We also had 32 car fields--5 rounds of racing vs the 4 rounds now between TWO teams

Driver packed chute, mixed fuel
We checked plugs, changed oil--if need be a piston or two(later maybe even a sleeve) and replace valves if cylinder had burnt.

After we had gotten enough stuff for two complete engines, we built the funny car--then we would go to a race and take the other cars engine for the spare

Was a lot of very exciting fun----today they got to worry about lawyers, contracts,sponser guests and hospitility areas, teams, hotel rooms for hundreds of people, etc,etc,etc

You know Don; I would have give you that 351 Cleveland but after you told me how they blow up I started thinking. I just wouldn't be able to live with my self if it blew up on you and you had to have your car towed home, and then if it got oil all over your your car. OMG, I'm sorry I just couldn't do that to a nice guy like you.
HE! HE! HE!
Kurt

I'll take the chance! Mine probably blew from 4:88 gears and too many R's one or two times. Yours is a lot better built than mine was, and a lot prettier Kurt.

Don

Hello All,
Thanks to everyone for all the great information. Special thanks to mike P for all the great Hemi Info. As pops stated, we got the engine totally torn down in about two hours on Saturday. I think all in all the engine is in good shape for a rebuild. I love tearing an engine down. Its like a mystery what you will find (hopefully a good mystery) I just could not help but to keep staring at this engine when it was sittting on the floor of the shop. So cool looking.

One question, all desoto valve cover pics that I have seen had a threaded nutplate welded to the valve cover for the plug wire covers to bolt to. Mine do not. Were there desoto covers without plug wire covers?

Now the million dollar question. What do I put this engine in? So many choices. Brother dan has a beautiful 30-31 model A 2 door sedan body that he will sell me. BUT Pops and dan have a different vision for the body than me. I would want it channeled over the frame with a heavily chopped top. Super low. dan and dad see it on a 32 frame hiboy style. Every time I talk about my vision I get a strange look from them both. So perhaps I would be better finding another body that they dont care about so much. Thanks again for all the great advice! Don Jr. P.S. Here is how I see that model a

Heres how dan and dad see it (I think)

You're right Don, the guys have provided some very good info about hemis on here. I especially like the part about any good machine shop being able to do them.

As for the way you want to build your car, you are missing the points that Dan and I were trying to make. It is your car and has to reflect what you want and your personality (and it is your money ) All we were trying to say is that with your very limiited time off from work (Monday evenings) it would be so much easier on you to build this one on a prefabbed 32 frame instead of having to build an entirely new one from scratch.

Also, the 30 body Dan has offered to sell you is so mint that they don't come along like this very often. To do a severe channel it would have to be cut up so much (especially for rear axle clearance) that it might be better to do a less clean body instead.

But we have nothing against a channeled one, and in fact think they look really cool. Here are a couple of my favorites:

Dad

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Yep Mike, the more I dig for info for Don the more I read what you are saying about all of them having dual points. I never knew ANY car had dual points as stock items.

Paul, I don't think so. You guys are the ones who do all that fancy stuff, we're just shadetree builders down here. Some of that stuff you all had in the shop that day I visited you I have only seen in magazines.

Don

Don and Mike -

I'm in one of those positions where I'm not running my big mouth for fear of making a fool of myself, but, doggone it, I'm almost ..... I said "almost" ...... positive that one of the Dodge D500 engines could be had with a factory dual point distributor. It would be '56 or '57 with the 315 ci engine. I'll say the '57 and I'll stick my neck out still farther and guess it was the dual quad version of the fifty seven.

I bought a '56 D500 new. It was a single four-barrel version with the one-shift automatic. Despite being "transmission challenged" I won the big share of my races in the "something/stock-automatic" class (I'm not sure about that, either).

If I'm all wet on this please don't embarrass me by telling everybody!


Jim

Jim, in the case of the Dodge D500 engines they were all Hemi's until the introduction of the "B" (wedge) engines in 1958. As such chances are that it would have been a dual point.

As the distributors would interchange between the Hemi's that had a Poly counterpart who knows how much swapping occurred.

Believe me I don't know everything about these engines (hell there were 12 different displacements divided between Chrysler, Desoto and Dodge with all three having versions in both tall and short decks) and nothing was written in stone with Ma Mopar.

Don Jr as far as I know all the first Gen Hemi's had the studs for the wire covers. It was/is pretty popular to have these removed to eliminate the covers and use 426 style dust covers (it's a mod I had done on the pair that’s on the 331 that will be going in my 37). I suspect if you look real close you will find the places the studs were spot welded.

I like the observation Don made about the size of the Hemi Block after you got the heads off....... it's almost a let down isn't it? It's really a testament to the original design and quality that they were able to make them go so fast with what is by todays standards would be considered minimal prep work.

As for the spark plug DUST COVERS we used some off of I believe Chevy Corvair--they fit into the tubes a little better and didn't blow around at high speeds as bad. You can see them pretty well in a couple of the pics in my photo gallery.

Good tips on the boots for the valve covers. I suspected too that someone had modified these to eliminate the studs but there is absolutely no evidence of any work on them, either inside or out. These appear to be bone stock. Is it possible some DeSotos came off the assembly line with booted ones? I have read that no other hemi valve covers will fit the DeSotos except for DeSotos, and if that is true these had to be some variation of those.

Everything else on this motor is unchanged from stock, so I can't see that anyone did any mods, this was just a 2 barrel car engine from all appearances.

I'll shoot some close up pix tomorrow of the covers.

Don

Originally Posted by Mike P

Jim, in the case of the Dodge D500 engines they were all Hemi's until the introduction of the "B" (wedge) engines in 1958. .

You're right about that, Mike. When I bought my '56 the available engine options were hemi V8's or the old flathead six that Chrysler used forever.

I think it would be cool to have one of the little 240 ci hemis sitting in my shop alongside one of the little sixty horsepower Ford V8's to keep it company.

I sat around last night trying to remember a few things about my '56 D500. I recall that some Chrysler propaganda referred to it as a "fast, roadable, production line hot rod" with 260 advertised horsepower, 9.25:1 compression ratio, and a "walloping" --- foot pounds of torque developed at a low ---- rpm.

...... And that should satisfy people's daily need for useless information.


Jim

I was curious to find out if Don's crank was drilled for a pilot bearing, as Mike P suggested, and it is. I took some pictures but the flange is hidden behind my engine stand plate so it was hard to photograph, but it looks just like the one Mike pictured in his excellent hemi thread.

I also wanted to get one more look at the valve covers to figure out what I could see relative to the studs for the spark plug covers. I put the covers under a bright light and used a magnifying glass but I really can see no evidence that there were 3 studs ever on these covers. Yes, there are clean sections between the plug holes where they might have been, but no real impressions or any grinding to indicate someone had removed them for some reason.

I realize a lot happens to a car in 55 years, but this motor just seems to be out of a bone stock DeSoto with zero speed modifications. Why would someone go to the trouble of carefully removing and smoothing those areas? Could it be that some DeSotos were just set up for boots? Doesn't really matter, Don is planning on running just boots anyway, so this worked out well regardless.

Here are some pictures. The first one is Mikes picture showing the pilot bearing hole, and the second one is the picture of mine I took.......hard to see anything, but I could see it with my eyes and feel it too.

The other pictures are of the valve covers.

Don