Thread: 8 Stack Hilborn-Style EFI

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Thinking about pulling the trigger on a cool, retro looking 8 stack Hilborn-style EFI. It would be going on my 496" BBC that powers my chopped, double "Z'ed", and slammed, '40 Chevy Sedan. Did a lot of web research on several companies and checked prices. Any recommendations, comments, or suggestions regarding running EFI or this specific unit? Thank you.


Tom

While I can't help with first hand info, maybe Rspears will join in and offer some pointers and some of his experiences, 8 stack induction will just be so cool! Keep us appraised of your progress with it!

Gonna be Way Kewl.

So as I scan the Force EFI site it appears that this is a fully programmable unit, and that it does not "self learn", is that right? If so, I notice that they have an option for an Innovate wide band O2 programming aid. I would strongly recommend that you have access to a wide band display, and ideally one with data logging capabilities to help you understand your F/A ratio across the load range. It's very difficult to tune with a narrow band, which is basically a "switch" with a dead band from about 13.7 to 14.7. You're also going to need to understand whatever "correction curves" that unit employs, mostly modifying the base program vs coolant temperature - things like your crank fuel, cold ambient (choke), and spark to help "tame the beast". I'm not at all familiar with how the Accel/DFI Calmap program presents data, but the key is to look at every table, understand how they inter-relate with one another and with the base fuel and spark maps, and then work on one thing at a time. If you ever start tweaking two or more things at one time, thinking you've got it all figured out and can't be fooled you're going to be heading down a very bad path. Ask me how I know....
If the Accel/DFI unit is "self learn" then disregard everything I've said, set your base timing and have fun driving while it learns.

It is self learning.


Tom

Very cool!!!

I don't know what brand yet... but I have a customer building a 383 SBC with 8 stack electronic injection. It got me excited, since it brings back memories of those outrageous gassers, altereds, and early funny cars! :-)

Yep. I grew up in that era and I've been wanting to add 8 stack EFI to my rod for almost 8 years now. I'm finally going to get it done then paint the car...then I'm done. Pretty anxious about it though. Get pumped just thinking about it.
I just remember all the cool altereds, gassers, dragsters, lead sleds, street rods, and street machines running Hilborn and Crower mechanical injection. They had to fiddle and fuss with it on the street. But once they got to the strip, it was designed to operate at wide open throttle. And "operate" it did. Well tuned cars ran like a banshee with it. Just ask the sprint car guys. To "electronic-ize" it gives the best of both worlds...streetability, horsepower, and performance too.


Tom

Originally Posted by bgblk40

It is self learning.
Tom

Tom,
Since it's self learning there's not much for you to do but get the initial timing set and let it learn. One thing I suffered through - my directions said to take the computer out of play (turn the ECM timing "off"), set the timing to 10BTDC, then put the computer back into play and don't turn it off again. I learned the hard way that when you turn off the ECM timing, the severely retarded spark puts tons of raw fuel into your headers, and they get very hot, very fast. If you have any type of coating on them it will be toast. While their way works you can also set your base timing just fine by leaving the computer in play, taking your rpm to a steady value, say 1500rpm, note on the laptop or handheld unit what the computer says it wants for timing at that point, then using a good dial back timing light adjust your distributor to that value and lock it down. Now your base plus ECM advance will be dead on at all ranges, and your headers will still be happy, too. That's what I'll do the next time....

Originally Posted by rspears

Tom,
Since it's self learning there's not much for you to do but get the initial timing set and let it learn. One thing I suffered through - my directions said to take the computer out of play (turn the ECM timing "off"), set the timing to 10BTDC, then put the computer back into play and don't turn it off again. I learned the hard way that when you turn off the ECM timing, the severely retarded spark puts tons of raw fuel into your headers, and they get very hot, very fast. If you have any type of coating on them it will be toast. While their way works you can also set your base timing just fine by leaving the computer in play, taking your rpm to a steady value, say 1500rpm, note on the laptop or handheld unit what the computer says it wants for timing at that point, then using a good dial back timing light adjust your distributor to that value and lock it down. Now your base plus ECM advance will be dead on at all ranges, and your headers will still be happy, too. That's what I'll do the next time....

Wow, Roger, thank you so much for the tremendously useful info. I'm going to install some longer tube headers anyway, so maybe I should dial in the EFI before I do that?


Tom

Originally Posted by bgblk40

Wow, Roger, thank you so much for the tremendously useful info. I'm going to install some longer tube headers anyway, so maybe I should dial in the EFI before I do that?
Tom

Yes. I would get the EFI on, timed and let it dial itself in before you install your new headers unless they are bare steel. Any type of coating, like chrome or ceramic could be at risk.

Thanks again, Roger.


Tom

Well,

I am putting a Hilborn on my Car too, and Hilborn is shipping my set-up this week (hopefully)-I did my Homework on this, and it came down to five differnt places to get it done-

-BDS (Craig Railsback)-he generally uses an Enderle Injector (which i kind of like because it has a integral Thermostat)-his Price was very close to Hilborn's, but it used the FAST system-I am using a 4L80E, so I would have to piggyback a TCI Controller which I really didn't want to do-

-Alkydigger (using Fran Olson)-this option uses either a Hilborn or Enderle Unit, and Fran suggests using a Megasquirt Controller (of which I'm not a fan)-this option offered the best Price, but Megasquirt help can be web-based, with no real "brick and mortar" to back it up-

-Force Fuel Injection-I was enticed by the Owner's knowledge, and he advocated using the Holley EFI System with the Enderle Injector-I was going to go this way until I did some research on the Web-if you research it you will find a higher number of negative experiences than I was comfortable with, so be careful-

-Kinsler-these guys could care less if you do business with them-they were rude, would not give me a firm Quote (they would give me round numbers within a $1000.00 or so), and had a terrible attitude-I would rather run a carbuerator than to deal with them-

-Hilborn-Andy Starr is a God, will answer stupid questions without making you feel stupid, and is very knowledgeable and helpful. I was initially hesitant, as Hilborn was only offering thier "Carrabine" or FAST Systems, but they recently tested and started offering the Holley EFI System-I was hooked, and ordered it, along with the Holley DIS System and 3" Injector-this was the most expensive option other than Kinsler though-

Good luck! I love the look of a Stack Injection system, and EFI makes them as painless as it gets-take lots of pictures and show it to us!

They scored an "F" on the BBB website......just for you'r info.

Shawn

Originally Posted by restoman

They scored an "F" on the BBB website......just for you'r info.

Shawn

Not defending Force FI in any way, but that BBB score is based on one advertising/sales issue, and the reason for the "F" is noted as "Did not respond to BBB." Doesn't seem like a glaring bad record, but might be cause to check them out a bit closer.

Update...decided to go with Hilborn because of great reviews and reports from users, and 2 unanswered phone calls over a 2 day period from a competitor. I'm trying to meet a deadline for painting the car after the fuel injection is installed so I don't have time to wait a matter of days for phone calls to be returned. Ordered the Hilborn 8 stack EFI today. Link to a pic below.

Hilborn Fuel Injectors

Every time I look at old school, 8 stack Hilborn style fuel injection my heart starts to throb. And, being electronic, you have the best of both worlds. I'm pumped.


Tom