Thread: EFI Options

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Roger--and others-----this is a road with many forks---to go to the hilborn and various options is going to add thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$to your build, If the main thing you want is efi, and drivability ,putting an oem system off a late model car will be thousands of dollars cheaper--lok at Daves poll---doesn't he have the cost of the entire engine,trans and wiring /controller around $6000????

I have repeatedly posted that the 32 5 window in my gallery is a 540 dart with hilborn/Fast/4l80 trans---did anyone go look at it??? I can maybe search back and find more pics to post but posting pics on here is a pain for me as I got to downsize/copy/edit/turn------------and it'll only take 5 at a time plus the order they come up is random-----

These comments/pics from 35 are good and the items that I'd have to comment on are that once again here is a dynoed engine that was run with the dyno operators carb/induction/ and maybe exhaust system that tells nothing except maybe there are no oil leaks---it tells absolutely nothing about the efi system and the company videos of the self learning features of a system are like a political speach------

The OEM PCMs from late model Detroit stuff has much more control capability than any of the aftermarket stuff and they have short term/long term memories---the areas that a aftermarket system will be a better choice is on a full tilt race only (maybe occasionally street driven) which is set up with multiple power adders---turbo/supercharged, water/metanol added, nitrous/multistage no2/transbrake, burnout ,linelock, timing retard for boost and NO2,shock valving control, fuel system control--------and data collection including time, G loads, O2/egt temp readings,etc
The polish/paint on the parts are not a factor in the choice between carb and efi-----------

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I have repeatedly posted that the 32 5 window in my gallery is a 540 dart with hilborn/Fast/4l80 trans---did anyone go look at it???

Yes I did, and what a beautiful Car-

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

These comments/pics from 35 are good and the items that I'd have to comment on are that once again here is a dynoed engine that was run with the dyno operators carb/induction/ and maybe exhaust system that tells nothing except maybe there are no oil leaks---it tells absolutely nothing about the efi system and the company videos of the self learning features of a system are like a political speach------
The polish/paint on the parts are not a factor in the choice between carb and efi-----------

Jerry,

It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Jerry,It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

No reason to bow out! Just the opposite, you have certainly added a whole new perpective to the conversation. I hope you continue to add your thoughts and experiences. By sharing these your helping many of us without even knowing it.

Same with Jerry and Roger, as always, there are a bunch of us sitting in the wings, reading and learning! 35Window, I hope you'll change your mind and stick around, we're glad to have you here.

35---nope you haven't hit any nerve at all---its hard for me to write the 100% words for what I'm trying to say------
Your engine is beautiful and is more like the one I did, but the pics in my gallery of that one are construction phase pics and not finished c ar--------------

Dyno with carb and manifold comment was simply stating that many people will dyno a customers engine with the dyno operator s carb/manifold--what good does that do? simply checks for oil leaks and the engine customer gets screwd out of several hours of machine shop labor-----------sorry

Polish/paint---I'll let my history of my creations speak for themselves(I'm not a RRF(RatRodFan))

EFI self learn----the guy in the video cut the fuel trims 50% and then idled the engine for a few minutes,----so at this point the engine has to richen up--pretty basic----then runs at wot------------IF that system was on your engine, in a race car, and you pulled it to the line for a run or lap and went full throttle--power adders, etc, you'd have junk--it will not add enough fuel quick enough and if it did, it probably would add too much---that is even if the injector size/flow rate/fuel system had enough capacity and pressure--------

We deal with these type of set ups constantly and are very involved at the leading edge of some of this stuff---we deal with turbo charger suppliers, super charger suppliers, fuel pump/tank/controllers, ignition, not to even enter the area of cam timing, displacement on demand, varible cam timing, changed firing orders, O2 sensor /egt placing, exhaust systems rattling on suspension ,Inlet air temps, water/meth sprayers, egt, egt

Enough for now, I need another coffee-----------

But I will repeat that for a street driven vehicle (meaning transporting humans) that you can't beat the capabilities of an OEM system custom tuned by an experienced tuner for the modifications done-------

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Yes I did, and what a beautiful Car-
Jerry,
It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

Originally Posted by 34_40

No reason to bow out! Just the opposite, you have certainly added a whole new perpective to the conversation. I hope you continue to add your thoughts and experiences. By sharing these your helping many of us without even knowing it.

Same with Jerry and Roger, as always, there are a bunch of us sitting in the wings, reading and learning! 35Window, I hope you'll change your mind and stick around, we're glad to have you here.

Please don't be offended, and now that you've broken the ice please continue to post!! I am especially interested in how you do with your Holley setup, and would enjoy seeing more of your car. I truly hope that you won't let one post turn you away.

Jerry,
I cannot agree with your closing statement that the "paint & polish" have no place in the decision between carb & EFI. Most on here are building for dual purpose - they want it to work right and provide the convenience of the more modern EFI, but if it doesn't look right it's likely going to stay on the seller's shelf. I don't disagree that the OEM computers have a lot of R&D behind them, and that they will likely have features that the aftermarket guys have not gotten to yet, but the evolution taking place is indeed happening. Talking to a supplier, they are now working in areas like A/F changes due to heat soak in the manifold, affects on hot start & cold start, increased efficiency in cruise, faster self learn, and identifying those places where self learn simply does not work and human input is necessary. Political speech?? Maybe to an extent, but in my case it was more of a "bench racing session" with a guy who's doing it today - the "...what's happening, and what're you working on now" discussion that I find fascinating.

Not trying to pick a fight in any way, but I think that the aftermarket EFI's have a place in the market. I'm having a ball stumbling through the learning process of the advanced tuning maps, correction curves, narrow band/wide band O2 readings, and everything else. It keeps my brain engaged, and keeps me humble when I see some of the stupid things I do, and then go back to fix them.

PS - On the pictures, I set my camera to the resolution "PC - 1024" so they fit just right without shrinking. Then I upload them to PhotoBucket in an album, and from there copy the "Image Name" and past it into my text - no "Manage Attachments" or fussing with order - they are in the order you paste the Image Files, and you can add text between them. Best thing is you can put up to thirty five photo images in one post!! Then you can "Reply" to your own post, and add thirty five more!! Sweet!!

Roger

Paint and polish---I am sure by now that you know where I have been on paint and polish------however, my comment was slanted toward the point that if anyone is interested in a newer system for whatever reason---the idea that your engine is already painted or has polished parts, is not/will not be a factor about the capability of the new system---

Some of the newer systems are plastic/composite so its an issue of paint whereas the older systems being metal can be paint or in the case of alum can be polished. of course then there is BILLET----------------

Now, for your engine----------IF you are looking for a throttle body based system so that you can keep the air cleaner in the middle of your engine bay----you have two choices--throtthle body injectors ORRRRRRR injectors in the ports, which will require welding bosses in the manifold runners and a fuel rail system with extra plumbing and wiring to the rail/injectors----------
IFFFFFFFFFFFF you want to go injected, you will have to upgrade several components in your fuel tank/pump/pressure regulators/control--including a key on momentary power to pump to pressurize the system and plumbing for a return to tank of excess fuel----------

Thanks for info on your pics---I don't do that because I got a 15 mb camera because thats what I want---------

IFFFFFFFFFF you want to do ported injection, it will require the manifold to be modified / or replaced----------

Starts to get sorta like politics-----$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$----------If your car is running decently now, I would suggest staying with the Holley carb---and maybe look at the msd system that controls SPARK from manifold and exhaust sensors----------

Iff you want fuel injection for a driver-look at the later years versions of your engine family for basic system componets and change the visable parts to whatever you want it to look like-----------

Another way to do efi is the marine way---look at some merckcruzer, etc systems

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Thanks for info on your pics---I don't do that because I got a 15 mb camera because thats what I want---

Jerry,
On the pictures, that 15mb camera still has lower resolution settings on the menu to take shots that will attach to e-mails without shrinking, or for those viewers that size the high resolution files to be like a billboard that you have to scroll back & forth, up & down to see the whole picture. You can also store tons more pictures in the lower resolution setting, and if you're not going to print bigger than 8x10 they are fine. If you're going to take a shot that you might want to crop and print in a bigger size, like maybe one face in a family reunion group and you want a 16x20 print of that one face then your 15mb resolution does it for you. Just trying to save you some steps and make life easier.

Roger,, I know and understand what your saying about setting a lower resolution on the camera--I got this camera because when out west on a trip to grand canyon, yellowstone,yoseme--all the orientals had this camera---the only time I have found a better camera that those folks use was when the Nasa guys took Hasselblads to the moon----yep, got one of them also, but it uses film--I have taken a lot of pics from high altitude and far off distances--I want to be able to count the cws and pigs in those feed lots (count the feet, divide by four)

I am also looking for lots of details on vehicles and airplanes---On the Canon EOS50D, I use a 28-135 lens --I can frame a complete car from the middle of the street and also sometimes keep a 300+mph car in the view finder down track with some details--------

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger,, I know and understand what your saying about setting a lower resolution on the camera--I got this camera because when out west on a trip to grand canyon, yellowstone,yoseme--all the orientals had this camera---the only time I have found a better camera that those folks use was when the Nasa guys took Hasselblads to the moon----yep, got one of them also, but it uses film--I have taken a lot of pics from high altitude and far off distances--I want to be able to count the cws and pigs in those feed lots (count the feet, divide by four)

I am also looking for lots of details on vehicles and airplanes---On the Canon EOS50D, I use a 28-135 lens --I can frame a complete car from the middle of the street and also sometimes keep a 300+mph car in the view finder down track with some details--------

Jerry,
No one is arguing with your ability to do those things, but the question is backing off the resolution for the local car shows where counting the number of points in the rock chip on the hood is not really a need. As I said before, you're complaining about all the steps you have to go through to post pictures, I pointed out that all you need to do is back off the resolution based on need, post them to a third party host and then link the image files, up to 35 per post. You're not interested? That's fine, but why keep complaining that your files are too big to post, and that you can only get five per post. You've decided to live with 15mb files for run of the mill photo's, so you have to live with shrinking them down to use them. Pretty simple.

Roger-
as long as I have been around any auto event or photo session, the photogs were all using the larger format cameras--and the film wasn't nearly as cheap as the 127 and 35mm film was----this hasn't changed----the proof is in the details---an old saying that can be used in dozens of situations--

I like to go to car shows to see what's happening and who is doing what-----I am more than happy to post here pics that show some of the themes of different slants on cars along with the details that make them unique----I don't intend to ever post any of my pictures to a third party host.
I will continue to downsize and edit them to the size that this site accepts--even tho it says there isn't any size limit!!!!!!! and probably only one out of every 5 or 6 will get posted.

Jerry - open the menu on the camera and just reset the resolution down. Even if I use the crummy seldom used 12mp Canon P&S, it will then make photos small enough pixel wise to post as long as I don't use the highest settings. And that 3rd party host = simple posting plus it will link you to the photo plus you still have your save photo on your computer, CD/DVD/thumb drive for posterity. You can designate private or public (which I seldom will) Remove it from the third party host - gone everywhere you linked it to.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough----I have the 15mp camera because it is a 15 mp camera---not to downsize the pixel settings--if I took some pics with the lower setting, I could not go back later and retake for a higher resolution----As for now, I make up albums and then copy and resize to the 1024 or what ever it is that will load----but, for instance, I took 869 photos at Indy, have a folder for the uploads to here that now has 1738 thumbnails in it that I have to reopen every 5 uploads and scan thru to where I left off-----------

This site has very little participation anymore and I firmly believe that the difficulty to post quality photos is a lot of reasons for the guys no longer around-------

IC2--example--you have ONE photo in your gallery and its 2240x1488 why not post some more???????????

Back to basics, I have a 650 holley, performer intake, on a 327, got it running so sweet. Is a EFI system really going to give me anything for $2,000+? Or is it just the next thing people have to have? Seems like a lot of bucks and may not be worth it. (I drive the equivlent of coast to coast twice each year.) Opinions?

Stay with the holley and I hope you have a mechanical fuel pump----------