Thread: No More "DIYer Paint Jobs" after 2007

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Thanks , I will search for it. Darin

Originally posted by FMXhellraiser
That's not the only thing... 06 starts the new chopper law by EPA and Harley Davidson... It's true too not just some rumor. The chopper one is that you can only own one custom in your lifetime and cant sell it until you have owned it for over 5 years. Harley Davidson is helping EPA with it and sponsoring it. I lost all respect for HD now because of it and so has a lot of others. Not a lot of people know about it but go to ANY chopper forum and look at the EPA links...
Pretty soon they will ban hot rods and we will have to run new motors and everything. I wouldn't doubt that in 10 years they start doing the same thing they are doing with custom choppers to hot rods.

FMX,

Where's the supporting info on this?

Originally posted by Don Shillady
Yes indeed SEMA needs to counter balance the EPA folks but as for the R12 situation it has to do with whether the chlorocarbon bond breaks off a -Cl easily to form the Cl-O molecule; that is what damages the ozone layer. So it is possible to still use other refrigerants based on whether they release Cl less easily into the atmosphere. The purpose of changing the refrigerant is to reduce the amount of Cl-O formed, so there are other compounds that can be used as refrigerants with less production of Cl-O.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder [/B]

Don, has it been proven conclusively that "CFC's" are the cause of the ozone layer depletion or still in the "theory" stage?

Originally posted by Henry Rifle
FMX,

Where's the supporting info on this?

Henry, look on www.clubchopper.com
They have a few threads on it. They have sites to sites about it, etc to show that it's true. I think it takes place in 06 or 07. I am almost positive 06. At first it was going to be 06 they will start this for just California and the other high emmisions states and then in 2010 they will do it to every state but now I think it's going to take place for every state. There's way to get around it. Find a old HD, chop the heck out of the frame and everything and you still have the VIN or numbers on the neck and there ya go, it's not a custom. Then again you can buy more than one bike and have it in your moms name, then your dads, then your brother, your sister, your other brother, your grandma...... yeah you get the point.

NTFDAY, To the best of my understanding there are two main arguments for the chlorocarbon effect on the ozone level. First the ozone level has recovered somewhat since the outlawing of R12 and second the ClO molecule (actually a free-radical species) has been identified by NASA about 5 years ago. The very sneaky thing about ClO is that it apparently has a very weak bond and only has one bound vibrational state so that if you try to shine an IR beam on it to identify it by infrared spectroscopy the energy breaks it apart, but I worked with one of the folks who characterized it using high level theoretical calculations (Dr. Don Philips, NASA-LRC) to prove it's existance. Of course when the atmosphere is modeled to study the ozone concentrations well over 100 molecular species are included in a model which requires the fastest available computers to simultaneously equilibrate all the species involved (including ClO). For the folks on this Forum it may be of interest that combustion can also be modeled in a similar way but even when a simple flame of just CH4 (methane) and O2 are modeled in a simple cyindrical pipe flame (cf. Prof. Rich Smook at Yale Chem. Engr. Dept.) it takes about 140 simultaneous reactions to get agreement with experimental measurements. Believe me there are very complete models of the atmosphere to understand the role of ozone but the problem is that when Cl atoms enter the atmosphere they can react with ozone to convert it to O2 over and over many times. I do not know the actual turn-over number for how many molecules of ozone can be destroyed by one Cl atom but it is many thousand at least so a little bit of Cl can do a lot damage to the ozone. For those of you who are skeptics there is complicating data which shows that even though there are more industrial sources of Cl in the Northern Hemisphere over the U.S., Europe, Russia and China, the ozone depletion is actually much greater in the Southern Hemisphere! Why?? It can't be due to Australia and Brazil?? Anyway, for me the main proof is that after R12 was outlawed the ozone concentrations did come back. Then again the "natural" emission of HCl and SO2 from the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philipines (Southern Hemisphere) also contributed to ozone depletion in the Southern Hemisphere. Maybe if Mount St. Helens blows it's stack again we may see an effect on the ozone levels at the North Pole? While it does seem that humans have effected the atmosphere somewhat, a few volcanic eruptions here and there still have a major effect.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

DennyW, thanks for the good link, I have bookmarked that site in case I ever teach that course again. I have always presented the case of the previous warming that suckered the Vikings into building on Greenland around 1300 and then they got frozen out. The problems of ozone depletion and global warming are somewhat different although both atmospheric in nature. Again I believe we ARE in a period of warming but the CAUSE is the question and the site you gave has a good long range view of climate cycles. Another interesting problem is that some folks in the oceaography community believe that if wind storms blow a lot of iron-containing sand from the Arabian peninsula into the western Pacific the zooplankton will fluorish so much that they will use up enough CO2 to bring on the next ice age sooner. This is based on readily demonstrated experiments in seawater where it can be shown that the zooplankton need iron and when then get it they grow very rapidly and then use up a lot of the CO2. You would think there are enough sunken iron ships to keep this going but the oceans are so vast that it would take thousands of shiploads of pure iron filings or iron sulfate to change the iron concentration of the ocean by even 1 part per million. But back to the paint question where the problem has to do with VOCs (volatile organic chemicals) in the residential environment where the "canary in the mine" indicator is the population with latent athsma conditions. Another interesting idea is to look back in history books to around 1895 for comments about the air quality in big cities like New York and Philadelphia. I came across one discussion that said any home or store at street level in New York was subject to a layer of finely powdered horse manure due to so many horse drawn vehicles in the street. Folks worried about auto emissions now ought to compare them to powdered horse manure! Anyway, stink is stink but we should have an open mind about the causes and the alternatives (want to depend on a horse for transportation, buy hay, shovel a stall and brush it down instead of washing your car?). Unfortunately it is true that scientists are human and are willing to hype their research to gain fame and funding in the situation where "publish or perish" is real and funding is necessary for promotion. Anyway back to paint, as the population density increases it seems to me that there will indeed be more restrictions on using volatile solvents for painting automobiles and restrictions have already wiped out the use of nitrocellulose lacquer which was easy to use even out doors in a dusty driveway provided you were willing to rub it out and apply lots of coats. I had a neighbor who did a nice job on an MG-TC roadster spraying it tan with chocolate fenders outside using lacquer and he just rubbed it out and resprayed imperfections and it turned out great! Well anyway NTFDAY pressed my button and got me started, overall I try to be open minded and take a middle-of the road atitude toward these environmental questions but they do require some thinking. In addition I am bracing for the $1500 bill for a "standard" modern paint job; I favor Saturn Cranberry or '47 Ford Pheasant Red close to the picture you previously did for me on a '29 fendered roadster. However it does not seem that you can even get the paint under $200 a gallon (more likely $250).

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,
As was posted earlier, it does seem rather coincidental that the ban on R-12, and most everything else that contained CFC's, came about with the theory that they were depleting the ozone layer.
I have great respect for the scientific community, but am not to keen on "theory". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't E=M2' still nothing more than a theory? Granted, it was proposed by probably one of the finest minds to ever populate the scientific community, but I believe it is still nothing more than a theory.
It's my humble opinion that the scientific community, as others, have those that have to justify their exsistence and unproven theory is but one means to that end.
As you are aware, releasing CFC's to the atmosphere can result in very heavy fines and possibly jail time if the transgression is brought to the attention of the EPA. That being said, why was R-12, for all practical purposes, banned? Could there be collusion here? IMHO, this is tantamount to swatting a fly with a sledge hammer.
Global warming/cooling is in the hands of Mother Nature and all the scare tactics in the world will not change that fact.

Originally posted by TooMany2count
at the bottom of the 1st post was this link that had the info on it

http://www.abrn.com/abrn/article/art....jsp?id=196423

just read it, probably part of it is true, some of it could have been twisted by the author to sound the way he wanted it to. it reads, introduced 2007- fully effective by 2011, so for 5 years, it will lay dormant, maby forgotten about.

It's only another tree hugger proposal, not even close to being a law yet.

Originally posted by Dave Severson
It's only another tree hugger proposal, not even close to being a law yet.

would seem that way, even if it became a law/ regulation, there is ways around it as you said.

Always way's around things like this...

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/...ay-15/a006.pdf
There ya go Henry and the others. There is one thing about that bike law comming. I know it's not PAINT or HOT ROD related but just goes to show you how hard EPA is comming down on hot rodders and bikers. Pretty soon they will only be allowed in museums unless you have some hot rod that runs on water and tree huggers wont be afriad to stick their mouth on the end of your tailpipe without crying.... or dying.

Read through it a bit, this effects production motorcycles built after March 15, 2004. Doubt it has much effect on an old shovelhead chopper. The snowmobilers, dirt bikers, and ATV's survived the reg just fine. Matter of fact power is up on this years crop of dirt bikes and snowmobiles.......

Dave, I am talking about building a bike now. All those custom bike builders will not have as much business, people can't build another bike, etc.... I understand that you can get an old bike or 04 bike and be fine but I mean now in 05 or 06...

NTFDAY, I don't want to be controversial and I agree healthy skepticism is a virture, BUT E=mc^2 is behind atomic weapons and enters in to the wave mechanics used to design solid state electronics. If you mean the current theories are not absolute without need for further refinement, then I agree quantum mechanics and relativity are just theories and in fact there are some far out folks still trying (and making some progress) at coming up with a "Unified Field Theory" or a "Theory of Everything". In that sense an overall theory is still under development, BUT as far as working equations used to design modern electronic devices and astrophysical calculations of objects in space the "Special" form of relativity has been proven recently with satellite experiments and the original "proof" by A. Einstein had to do with the reflected light from the planet Mercury being bent by the gravity of the Sun and that pretty well accounts for the false position of the image of the planet relative to classical orbital calculatons. I have made my career on applying quantum mechanics to molecules and I admit it gets so complicated that it is often tricky to interpret, but based on my professional judgement the "Toronto" ban (pre-Kyoto) on R12 has had a positive effect on the ozone levels, but as I said before in another posting, volcanic eruptions may still have a greater effect on the ozone levels and as far as global warming goes, I do think we are in a warming cycle but I previously noted there was a similar cycle around 1300 A.D. during which the Vikings colonized Greenland only to be frozen out about 100 years later and that was when the human population was much lower and there were no internal combustion engines. Yes the planet Earth is one big Mutha-Earth and humankind is only one factor in the geoclimate effects, but in the case of the R12 debate I think that was a step in a positive direction, although Mt. St. Helens could easily have a greater effect. In my own career I tried to use the best available computer models of molecular behavior but I was always cautious when others would claim "truth" since it is all too apparent that with a computer you can easily make mistakes, so I would just do my best for the best answer and try to bracket the results relative to real world data. Still in the case of R12 I think banning it has helped reduce ozone depletion, at least until the next volcanic eruption. In the case of the internal combustion engine it is clearly better and cheaper to put an engine on a dyno and find out what it really does than to use a computer model, BUT that is only because the present computers are too small and too slow. My professional attitude (not appreciated by my previous administrators) was/is that if you would only let me use the biggest, fastest computer (IBM Deep Blue) the equations could be used to theoretically characterize even combustion and in fact the AFOSR does some of that for jet engines as well as by NASA researchers. My position is that the theory is in pretty good shape (since about 1930!) and the problem is that even the best computers of today are not big enough, fast enough to fully apply known theory, BUT, even so I know that modern solid state physics can be used to make outright design of new electronic devices and orbital anlysis in astrophysics can be done on modern computers that accurately make use of special relativity, AND if it were not for E=mc^2 atomic bombs would just be heavy objects! Anyway for hotrodders who want to go faster and faster, that mentality is evident in computer design, but thwarted by administrators who often have degrees in other fields like Social Science or Business Administration who only see the expense of modern computing and so theory largely waits for either clever pencil and paper solutions to equations or application of ever better computers. While we are on the topic of VOCs from paint, anybody out there have a good suggestion for an inexpensive single stage maroon?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder