Thread: Just curious...

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HOTRODPAINT, I guess to me a lot of it might revolve around the very use of the TERM Rat Rod, because as Bob said above

"...A lot of traditional style guys don't like the rat term because it's not intended to be complimentary....."

and I agree. In my case the first time I heard the term was in conjunction with motorcycles, and it was not an "honor" many bikers aspired to (even as "in your face" as most are).

As I view the term as a less than favorable classification (particullary as it relates to safety issues) I tend to put any vehicle that does show even a minimal amount of workmanship, attention to detail and and consideration of safety issues into a class that I feel it fits the car better. In my mind, by doing so I am paying a complement to the builder for his inititive rather than slamming him.

Take the late teens/early 20's guy or gal thats putting together their first car (no matter the body style) the car may have a long way to go, but as has been mentioned their doing their best effort. In my mind calling it a rat rod (especially if they if it's still under construction) is slamming them and their efforts.

I guess I just can't (at least not right now) bring myself to classify a car as a rat rod unless it fits into the rather strict definition I have listed above.

I am not unaware of how the term is used by many people to include basically any car or truck that has less than a show quality paint job or thats its applied to any era vehicle. For me there are a lot of cars that are called Rat Rods (even by their owners) that just shouldn't be in that catagory.

Mike, I never did think of it as a criticism, or a judgement.

To me it's always been a descriptive term for a certain intentional "look", produced with flat or aged paint, an abundance of vintage or retro pieces, and generally an unfinished appearance.

The rat bikes were the same way. Just a look of age, a lot of use, and zero maintenance on the cosmetics.

Having said that, I can see the artistic element their builders are after, and I applaud them for stepping outside the box in their thinking. Too many car enthusiasts simply "follow the leader", and are unwilling to risk disapproval. However, I will never be personally interested in them.

I have spent the last 40 years restoring, modifying, repairing, building, customizing, and generally trying to make them look like rolling art! :-) Craftsmanship and artistry are the things I strive for. I am simply no longer "wired" to accept a shabby appearance. If anything, I expect to continue to improve my abilities in the other direction.

HOTRODPAINT: You were doing pretty good until you got to that "vagrant" part.
I'm beginning to see why those people who choose to build rat rods come with a chip.

By your nickname, I would guess you are somehow involved in the painting of cars or in the selling of related products. If that is correct, I can see why you would not like cars devoid of fancy finishes. But to automatically consider those individuals who elect, YES ELECT, to build their creations in a form that you do not consider acceptable, is just BS.

Right now in my circle of friends are 2 individuals who could buy or build any car they want, and while I am not in their multi million dollar league, I am not poor, either. But, we are all building what we happily call rat rods, because for the first time in a long time we are truly excited about building something different and creative. All three of us have had dragsters (one friend has raced at the Nationals for years) we've built some high dollar and low dollar cars, and lots of them. But it was getting boring, so we started boating.

Then this rat rod thing came along, and we started seeing cars that weren't the cookie cutter ones you see row after row of at runs and shows. They were different and showed true creativity and forethought. Sure, some of them had suspension systems that were not the best, but there were also some good ones out there too.

So before you start throwing terms like vagrant around, you should know a little more about the person you are addressing. I think a lot of car owners get PO'd when the rat rod next to them at a show gets more attention than their high dollar, billet everything, rod. I've heard those guys complaining about it.

I try to stay out of this discussion everytime someone raises it, but it is hard to do so when I see such closed-mindedness and stubborness from some individuals. But it ends up in the same old circle every time.

HOTRODPAINT: You were doing pretty good until you got to that "vagrant" part.
I'm beginning to see why those people who choose to build rat rods come with a chip.



Read it again.

"LOOKS LIKE"! LOOKS LIKE"!

That does not mean I am calling the builder a vagrant! The smiley face should have been some kind of clue!

In my following post I even complimented the rat rod builders.....JEEEZ! I'm sitting on the fence on this one, but I'll probably get flak from both sides!

By the way. The term "hot rod" AS I'VE BEEN SO HARSHLY TOLD, fits every damn thing on the planet, which includes the restorations, street rods, drag cars, customs, choppers, and even the drag boats that I've had in my shop. Be careful what you assume about car terms!.....especially on this site!

HOTRODPAINT: Sorry if I came across as being angry about the "vagrant" thing, but this whole topic just seems to have such high emotions on both sides of the fence.

I am just trying to get both camps to be a little more toward the center, and be able to exchange ideas and info without the hostility. Not that I've been appointed to that post, but I just want to try to see us all have a little more understanding for the other contributors.

Like I said before, this is such a great forum. I guess Brent is the driving force behind it, and the workload must be staggering, Hats off, and if others are involved, I thank you as well.

Now I've got important stuff to deal with. Sunday is my only day off, and I have laundry to do, and a house to clean. (Man, this single life is tough sometimes) I'm looking for new recipes if you have any.

or hopefully not.....

So far this has been about the best (and most civil) discussion of different view of rat rods I've seen on this forum. Someone USUALLY WITHOUT THE INTENTION of upsetting someone else says something and out come the clubs, (and yes it is often times one of the more traditional builders, but it is a two way street).

I "THINK" HOTRODPAINT was trying to make a point about fit and finish, not instigate a slug fest. Again, I could be wrong, but HRPs comment brought to mind the rusty, hammered, arc welded, warped renditions almost all of us have seen at one time or another. As a body and paint guy it would have to give him shivers.

I've looked at donsrods gallery and think I can understand why he would take offence. The chop he's doing looks like it will come out first rate, and there is a LOT of work involved to get it that way. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that Don's car will be well done, but basically covered in either flat paint or primer. While "I" would not necessarily classify Dons car as a rat rod when finished, HE DOES.

Getting back to the origins of this thread, I really does revolve around what people envision when they hear the term rat rod.

I would really like to see more input on this, although it probably won't change the definition I use to define a Rat Rod, (and I don't Think I'll be changing anybody else's) at least I can see how other people are defining it.

HOTRODPAINT i think you are starting to understand ,imo there is no defineing characteristic that makes a car a rat rod ,to me its something you see in the way the builder made it , almost like you can see his personality without ever meeting the guy,you can tell hes on the same page as you when it comes to that style. and that doesnt always include flat paint imo , i have seen many a car i would label a rat , in a shiny coat, it goes back to the additude of the builder , bob had mentioned on another thread that chip foose was doing tribute rod that will likely be labeled a rat imo foose will most likely capture the true essence of the rat culture and make the mostwell built , high dollarrat to date. Chip has an eye for that sorta thing,Thats what also imo is what seperates the high dollar street rods, sure there are the rich nerds that have no style , but want a car to be flashy, but then theres the true visionary that takes the same off the shelf rod kit and makes a standout rod, because he has style,ya get what im trying to say ,its not the parts its the heart. Now to another subject that don touched on , i was at the local cruise-in last night, and was telling the guys about all this rat talk on the forum ,and had 10 guys none under 50 tell me that you guys need to check your memory cause they did to build cars like that in the 50s, they all have lots of money ,and been building cars since the 50s & 60s ,they have high dollar cars ,and they have rats, in fact a couple of them are coming to a rockabilly show us ratters are having this coming weekend,plus are making plans to attend the rumblers show next month,(are you going donsrod)

Sorry, I was busy vacuuming. Where is this show? My car is a long way from done, and I tore my '27 down for a redo, so I would attend sans hot rod.

Hey, we actually all had a nice exchange for once. COOL!!!!! I knew this forum was populated with a bunch of nice guys, and a little friendly disagreement between friends never hurts.

The show is at the new harley dealership in ormond, that huge new one right off i-95 by daytona , im not sure of the day i know its in feb check the rumblers orlando sight ,im trying my best to get the merc drivable by sat

Don, you used the term cookie cutter. One all of us have probably used at one time or another. Things become cookie cutter because a sufficient number of people see some kind of value in whatever it is. The rods we call cookie cutter today, were in the minority at some point in time (a "new" idea), until enough people embraced the style, or whatever characteristic is being labeled, and then it became more common place.

he, he, he........................if RRs are to be as popular as their devotees would contend, wouldn't they then become "cookie cutter"? This is not quite a shameless plug for my thread "The death of.........".

Deep Bob, very deep. I'll get back to you.

Okay guys, thanks... Now, getting back to my original question, I to thought the '30 to be based more on the "Traditional" build concept. It does appear to have a few modern creature comfort things, but thats cool too! The reason for my curiosity is the difference in general presception that I find amongst my friends with regards to Rat or not Rat. I run with guys that cover most genre of our hobby. What I find interesting is that my friends in the "Muscle Car/Street Machine" class seem to catogorize pretty much any older "Hot Rod" era car (let's say pre '48) in primer that looks like that to be a Rat Rod, period! I must admit that like me my friends are in their 50's and up so that MAY have something to do with it. My friends in the "Street Rod/Hot Rod" class preceive that car to be more of traditional concept than anything else. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, I just find it... hmm, curious!

Peace,
Greg

BINGO!!! You have just hit on that the real issue is simply one of terminology. (however you spell that word) I have had people approach my '27 and call it a kit car, a jalopy, a t bucket, etc. All terms which don't fit, but I consider the person who is saying it, and realize they don't mean anything derogatory, it is just a term they know and are using.

You have, in one post, solved the issue of why we are bickering about this word "rat". It is just that some of us feel this is the correct term and others don't.

Thank you for the post, now I see where we have been differing.

I have the solution!

Take the term. "rat rod" out of your vocabulary. No two peole agree about it's meaning, so it's no good for communication, anyway.

I propose using the words "great car". Nobody will argue about that, and then we can talk about important things.

Originally posted by HOTRODPAINT
I propose using the words "great car". Nobody will argue about that............

Wanna bet???


Greg, your point about the "muscle" guys hits it real close. People tend to be sloppy with terminology that's of little to no personal interest/significance to them. They don't "suffer" the consequences of inaccuracy.

An example from outside the hobby. You'll often hear people refer to a driveway or sidewalk as cement. It's not, it's concrete. Sure, cement is a component of concrete, but they're not the same. But people have been getting away with calling it wrong for years because the contractor just gives them what they really want, not what they said. Each of you can probably think of something similar in your area of business expertise. It's all too common.