Thread: hot rod history ?

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Originally Posted by hotroddaddy

im still disapointed that there is over 50 veiws now and only 18 posts

Don't be, as I have been at least ten of those making sure this thread does not get out of line like the last one I closed for 24 hours to allow participants to cool off.

Bill S.

Good descripion don, i just think it would be cool to hear what others think too

I'd say there hasn't quite been this kind of divide in the past, or more accurately to this degree of discontent.

Being people, certain tendencies prevail. Rodders would often mock customizers and vice versa. The old "if it don't go, chrome it!" slur came from that. Rods were go, customs were show. Sure, there were exceptions on both sides, but the "image" followed that line. Competition is at the root of a lot of what motivates creative people, and that applies to cars as much as anywhere/anything.

Just some random thoughts;

I would point out that Roth never had a car that wasn't painted in shiny finish. He also worked the show circuit way more than he did the street/strip. He was an artist, a car was just the medium.

When rodders and customizers "went at it" in times past it was anywhere from mild ragging to moderate bickering, hardly the white hot rage thing. What's changed today is there is less respect in general throughout society. Also, there is more of a divide based on, what I would say with some reservation and wishing for a better term, class distinctions. In general I'd attribute it to the "warfare" fostered in the media and their close elitest cousins in politics. The temperament/mood spills over into everyday life and manifests itself in multiple ways. As such you see the self described "rat rodders" spew their "rich guys ruin the hobby" tripe. The older guys don't see themselves that way and resent the personal attack. They retaliate in kind and then the "young guy" feels compelled to do likewise, repeating the cycle. Envy, hate, and narrow mindedness lead to ugly things. While some of us "old guys" haven't helped the situation, I still contend the bigger chip is on the "younger guys" shoulders.

Now, that risks inflaming the us vs them mentality, which isn't what I would like to see. I'd much rather the young guys do what they want to do (within reason without hurting the hobby in general) and let their output stand on it's own. Rather, what we often see on sites like this is young, inexperienced guys making silly comments something like, "I hate those shiny, show car, trailer queens............they're not REAL hot rods". That gets followed with some blather about how cars used to be done, and that's the only legitimate way for a real rod to be. In this they show a complete ignorance of history/reality. The internet and book shelves of numerous stores are jammed with books that chronicle the history of hot rodding with relative accuracy. With a minimum of effort one could see that hot rodding has followed a "natural" progression to where it is today. Largely, well built, and admittedly expensive, rods evolved to where they are because their owners evolved. Many guys who drive high dollar rides today, were low buck guys 40 years ago, just as the young guns today are. As these older guys progressed through their lives they worked at careers that enriched them monetarily, that "improved" their tastes in hot rodding amenities. As an example, in the late '60's early '70's it was innovative to put an automatic trans in a rod. Just as "in the day" customizers were motivated to make their old cars look more modern, even futuristic, so too rodders wanted to put the latest technology in their old buggies. In time this meant adding things like power steering, independent suspension where it hadn't been originally, air conditioning, higher grade materials, and more contemporary colors, among other similar modifications. With each passing year, more and more people were able to afford cars (not just rods, but sports cars, race cars, vintage classics and so on). As our society became more affluent, so did our hobbies. Yet in rodding, the continuing thread was, adapt newer technology to older cars, not unlike what a mid '30's rodder did by putting a flathead V8 in a model T. Then along comes these young upstarts who start saying that that sort of rodding is somehow illegitimate, not necessarily in those words, but by the general tone of their comments and accusations. Well, the old guys who earned their stripes over a few decades of doing "real rodding" just flat don't/didn't like the bad mouthing.

Now, given that the constant thread in rodding since the 1920's has been to upgrade using the newest techology, can "retro rodding" really be hot rodding? Something to contemplate perhaps, but not directly applicable to this thread. I say that as someone who's spent a good part of the last 18 or so years doing mostly "traditional" cars, a term that doesn't necessarily have universal agreement on it's definition. By traditional, I mean representative of what I remember from my youth, with some "poetic" license. Most of them are posted in my gallery. A couple are in suede, both the '40 coupe and the '36 coupe were flathead powered, some were muscle car "restorations", or perhaps more accurately called restifications. The two '32's were more upscale, but not unlike early '60's cars with shiny paint, and small block Chevs. The '72 pickup was a typical early '90's style, and the '33 will be another primered car reminiscent of a car that was parked in a driveway along my paper route in 1961. And not unlike most of my contemporaries they are all driven, not trailered, even though some of them were/are what some would consider "high dollar".

If I had my druthers I'd just as soon there weren't any contentious divide. But as long as there are people new (relatively so) to the hobby who insist on trying to force a negative attitude on those who've walked the path ahead of them, there's gonna be push back.

There's a reason a fish doesn't know he's wet.

Great points as usual Bob. To further the theory that hot rodders evolved, I am also seeing some evolution in rat rodders.

I have been posting on a rat rod forum for the past couple of months. One of our members here put me on to it. Something that has surprised me about the guys who participate in that forum is how nice they are. They are just like us older guys were 40 or so years ago. Eager to learn and trying to put together a rod with their own two hands. I am also pleased to see the word "safety" being used quite a bit. Peer pressure on there seems to be driving them toward building better and better rods.

Someone on another forum made a comment that made me stop and think. He said to the effect "the rat rodders may be keeping the interest in hot rods alive within the younger generation, because most of their age group is more interested in tuners and mini trucks." That may be very true. These guys and gals share the same love of vintage tin that we all do, and in some respects are paying tribute to us older guys and the days we came from.

Just something to think about.


Don

Bob, I always take these internet discussions as a little more "noisey" than everyday reality. People are more outspoken when they are out-of-reach. :-)

About three months ago, I attended the only Arizona screening of "tales of the Rat Fink", a lighthearted, partly animated, Roth biography. The guys who attended were a mix of old and young, but all were "hardcore", for sure!

There was some discussion about the new trends, since there were quite a number of cars showing the "rat influence", but generally it was friendly. I was a little suprised that many of my old acqaintances (of my age) were displaying this "influence" on their cars. It was obvious that it wasn't just younger guys. I was a little shocked to hear some of the same arguments about cost, and such, from guys who had a history of traditional builds, and even one who has partly made his living from the hot rod community, for decades!

I guess my point is that I'm finding a percentage of established older enthusiasts are also building in the "rat genre", so it may not be as divisive as I assumed.

My first real involvement with "hotrods" came in 1965 when I moved to Belleville, Ontario and got involved with the Belleville Road Angels. The club membership was limited to 20 people, and surprisingly, you didn't have to have a hotrod----just an abiding interest in them. I was fascinated by the "hotrod" thing, and at the time my car was a 1956 Chev Belair. I only remember about 4 of the guys having "traditional" styled early thirties hotrods, but they were well finished, painted, and upholstered. There were one or two early 50's Chevies in black primer, at least one of the early 50's Plymouth coupes with the trunk about 10 friggin foot long, and I think that it still carried original paint. I don't remember anything that would resemble a "rat-rod" at the time---at least not the "no floorboards/spanner wrench brake-pedal/rust everywhere/ plexiglass windshield/ mexican blanket upholstery" type that are now glorified in "Ol Skool Rodz". Most of us (except one or two older guys) had only one vehicle, which was our daily transportation, our grocery getter, and our "late Saturday night drag car" (which was not sanctioned or approved of by the club). Many of our cars were "works in progress" which meant that you did as much custom bodywork as you could on the weekends, then primered that area to keep it from rusting and drove it that way thru the week. ----Nobody seen red oxide primer as a "finish coat" and the cars were eventually finished and painted some nice gloss finish.-----A few who enjoyed the "rebel" look did keep their rides in black primer (and repainted them about every 3 weeks when the black primer started to turn grey). As someone else on the board here says "we never built them to look ugly". Gradually over the years, as our skills and incomes improved, those of us who stayed with the rodding scene were able to have both a family car and a dedicated hotrod. I personally don't like the "rat-rod" thing. They offend me, and one of my fears is that the unsafe ratty looking damn things will bring down the power of the police on the heads of all the other rodders who try to build safe and well finished vehicles. I make no excuses for my opinions.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

To further the theory that hot rodders evolved, I am also seeing some evolution in rat rodders.

Don

If you remember Don, that was one of the points we tried to make in the famous (or would that be infamous?.....whatever) "Death of Ratrods" thread. We talked about this being another fad that will grow/evolve/pass through, the hobby just as all previous trends did. Oh the howling!!! People who haven't experienced enough to know that change is constant will often prove that denial is more than a river in Egypt. Also stated there was the observation that some of these young builders will move on to higher build qualities in their cars as their experience grows, and their budgets allow. What a concept..............exactly how you, I, and most other "ancient" ones did it.

Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

There was some discussion about the new trends, since there were quite a number of cars showing the "rat influence", but generally it was friendly. I was a little suprised that many of my old acqaintances (of my age) were displaying this "influence" on their cars. It was obvious that it wasn't just younger guys. I was a little shocked to hear some of the same arguments about cost, and such, from guys who had a history of traditional builds, and even one who has partly made his living from the hot rod community, for decades!

I guess my point is that I'm finding a percentage of established older enthusiasts are also building in the "rat genre", so it may not be as divisive as I assumed.

Not to come down on the lad too much, but you'll note it only took 15 minutes after my post for a negative shot to be fired. I know these guys believe what they say about what they perceive they've observed, but that type of claim is patently absurd. If all you observe is what interests you, your obvious opinion is skewed to believe that "everyone" else validates your view. My hope is that in time young folks who take the narrow view will mature to be more aware. I know probably 8-10 people pretty well who own "$100k" cars, and all but one of them couldn't give a rip less if nobody looked at their car. The one exception noted is just an overall jerk in nearly every facet of his life and I'm only aware of him because he's a friend of a friend. (I don't hang with the indoor, winter show, judged crowd so I could imagine there's more of the ego driven car crowd there) The rest of the guys, with one trust fund baby exception, are self made wealth guys. Very comfortable with their achievements in life, and not bragadocious about their success. They don't suffer from the envy that the envious try to project on them. Again, I would hope that as the youngsters mature they learn to grasp that concept.

You're right about the affordability issue. But I'd contend that's always been a factor. To listen to the rat rodder predominant chatter you'd believe there are only two categories of rodders, the poorboy "real" rodders, and those evil rich guys who've ruined everything. Yeah, a slight overstatement on my part..........as Don pointed out some of the RR guys are mellowing, and as a result the older guys are more accepting. Again pretty natural. My point on the cost thing is that it's always been a factor, just relative to each person's situation. We've always had the bucks down folks, they tended to use the less popular, and therefore lower initial cost, starting points. They were the guys with the four door Plymouth sedan, or the clapped out Hupmobile. They would scrounge the best running used engine they could and do a bomb can rebuild. If they had upholstery it was either a worn original or a low cost, mostly flat, vinyl. If they could afford a $5k car, then a $10k car was high dollar. The guy who could afford the $10k car thought a $20k car was high dollar, and his low. The same for the $20k guy and so on. If you remember, about a week or so ago we had a kid on here who thought $15 - 20k cars qualified as "trailer queen" show cars. Pretty tough to take someone like that seriously as far as his knowledge of what the hobby is all about. He's got a lot to learn. That's fine, he would lose a lot of points though if he argues the point from a position of ignorance as we see happen from time to time.

As for the "established" rodders building to the RR fad, not surprising. Some guys really love to build cars, useing them when done is often a short term thing. These guys will build to the current fad because they hope to maximize their sale that will fund the next build. Go where the action is! Today it's with "traditional" cars. In the late '80's, for example, it was pastel, smoothie cars with bold graphics. A decade from now, assuming no major shocks, it will likely be something else.

I think another factor plays into the motivations of the "senior" rodders.....................they're past their prime earning years. Many are retiring to fixed incomes well below what they used to make. They need to learn to do more with less to put it in inadequate terms. Some will sell off and drop out, some will die, some will continue on in a fashion that fits their economic environ. Ain't life grand?

I think the sharp contrast of opinions and its demeanor ,is a direct reflection of all aspects of the world today.Parent/ child relations are more agitated today along with shooting someone for flipping you off type mentality.
The U.S. used to be called a melting pot ,and today I think there is a global melting pot happeneing.This has brought about people from all walks looking to maximize there individualism and stand out from the world or not be defined by others actions.Also I see alot of people trying to get back to there roots so to speak to define themselves and these people ,not unlike most people, resist change and fear it will take away from there individualism.

When people feel threat, they tend to feel backed into a corner and therefore lash out trying to define themselves.This may be adding to the demeanor that is displayed to others in rash actions.I do not see this just in rodding ,but in all walks of life rearing its ugly head once again ,all the way from Abu ghirab prison in iraq all the way down to calling a 15 year old kid a terrorist for pulling a fire alarm at school. This problem has only recently found its way to hotrodding .
What was once a large single group of rodders,has been turned into what I like to call factions,now each faction can form there own standpoint and fire away at the other factions trying to define themselves by touting we are the only way or the correct way.We are all part of one big group called people/humans/ and will never come together in harmony as long as the media helps keep us tucked away in faction groups and can divide us.People tend to get along untill they become part of a faction and are unconciously told as part of that faction this is how you should act or build cars.

To sum it up,do not let your culture/faction define you ,its based on a fragile thing called perception,its not permanent or unchangeable and anytime you let a faction define you as a individual you severly limit your room for individualism and growth by being defined by a faction or groups actions, not your own individualism.By trying soo hard to define yourself as a individual by becoming part of a group/faction you limit your endless possibilities and do no more than become part of a group and loose that individualistic flavor you are looking for.

We as a world become more divided everyday and only give this type mentality a place to flourish and grow ,pretty soon we will all be in little 10 person factions all over the world and be at each others throats to conform to this or that factions ideas.Hopefully in 50 or a 100 years all these factions will long gone that divide us and we can get on a path to unite our world and leave room for all to be free thinkers, and start to help humanity as a whole and not just help our particular faction.
God help us get over this divide and conquer mindset that has divided us into these factions,because this is actually what all this is about , different factions jockeying for approval and righteousness thru verbal comunications and looking for verification on this by recrutment numbers and manifestations.

I am not saying groups are bad or clubs,I am talking about fracturing a group such as hotrodders or car people into opposing factions,just look at all the religous groups here in America,we have em all represented here,those are all factions on a common belief of religon,like all these definitions of rods break car people into opposing factions.

Dagburnit ,I done gone and typed a whole book again I guess I need to work on my vocabulary and spelling and become a writer or atleast refrain from typing a saga everytime I feel compelled by a subject?

Its not all bleak,they tore down the wall over in germany ,maybe we can do the same with all the other invisible walls that divide us and be able to appreciate individualism with out the need to circle the wagons and form factions and start firing the bullets of insult and division at all opposing views....

To sum it up,do not let your culture/faction define you ,its based on a fragile thing called perception,its not permanent or unchangeable and anytime you let a faction define you as a individual you severly limit your room for individualism and growth by being defined by a faction or groups actions, not your own individualism.By trying soo hard to define yourself as a individual by becoming part of a group/faction you limit your endless possibilities and do no more than become part of a group and loose that individualistic flavor you are looking for.



Mighty fine words shawnlee, if only humans could follow, but as we all know too well there is a certain path humans take , your either leading or following



One thing about the rat/ kustom kulture scene that i find annoying, is the fact that there is no backbone in a belief, i tone myself down somewhat on this forum from my naturally rowdy self, not to be politicly correct, but to not cloud my mind from the all around learning that can be achieved from the broud spectrum of minds that post here, ive found that there is no reason to try to force a belief on those that do not want to understand, i haved tried multiple times like now to let all speak in different ways so we could better understand our different car cultures, and to learn some history to educate us younger guys who want to no the history of this hobby we all share and devote damn near every waking moment of our lives too, but back to my annoyance, i find all the excuses that most ratters come up with to try to explain this culture is bullshit, every so called retro greaser/ rockabilly ratter comes up with this "were doing it old skool " crap, but none are willing to defend this hardass image they portray, the way i see it, but this is only my opinion, is no its not all old school ,this is a new culture, its a new rebelion of sorts, there meant to be ruff and rude, thats the line they chose to walk when they decided to build a rat rod, not this i wanna be cool crap so im gonna build a rat rod ,then use the low buck excuse, thats crap, don has proved that you can still build a quality ride for cheap, they chose to build a rat cause they wanted to cool and tough, but they lack the balls to admit that, and it irritates the shit out of me, we all might not like all the styles that can be had, but most here can tell you why they like it , and will defend it, if in life someone chooses to talk a certain talk, then they should have the self respect to walk it to, i know im a little guilty of getting off the original subject here, but i had to vent a little, i thank you guys for all the replies they have been great, lets see if we can contibute some more history lessons its going well so far, oh and im also sorry for breaking my own request of not putting anybody down, ill contain myself now

i think that the main problem people seem to over look is how the definition of hot rod gets taken way out of context. a hot rod by definition is anything you want it to be. it can be a pinto with cool wheels or a bada** pro street race car, or it could be a shiny $100k+ show car, basically to me a hot rod is any type of car, truck, or vehicle in general that brings a huge smile to your face and makes you happy to drive it. for me i like galaxies, i enjoy the smell of a vinyl interior or the sound of open exhaust. i love anything old, anything classic. a hot rod is an expresion of the person that owns it. if everybody spent less time and thought trying to call the other guys out then that would be a ton of time and thought we could all devote to building something thats cool as hell. i have respect for anything i see. if i can see that someone has put time and money into it then i can respect it even if its not what i like. even kids my age with ricers. i respect what they do. they are just doing with what they can afford and most of them dont have a lot of experience with working on cars, and they dont have parents that can teach them like i have been blessed with and even if they do it still doesnt give me te right to call them out and be rude just because they like something diffrent form me. so saying that you cant stand the rat rod guys or the million dollar show car guys is just closed minded. people need to stop building cars for everybody else and start building for themselves. it doesnt matter if no one else likes it, if you do then its a hot rod and its cool. i dont really like chevys but im not gonna rag on someone who does, its what they like so what it doesnt hurt me. but if people are gonna build a car that is unsafe thats where i draw the line, never sacrfice saftey for looking cool. and remember a hot rod is anything that you think is cool. its not what everyone else thinks of your car that makes it a hot rod its what you think of it that makes it a hot rod.
thanks
Tyler

Okay, the new guy is going to wade in here. First off, it is very interesting seeing everyones opinions along with the history lessons. Very few custom cars "offend me" , no, ..... cars don't offend me. Some people offend me but they are not hot rod guys or show car guys, or rat rod guys. There are things I can learn from each of them, and all of them will influence my opinions , good or bad on the style of car I like.
My brother was building a 31 Essex back in the early 80's. He worked and worked on that car, over the period of several years. We pushed it all over the place but never drove it because it never made it to that point while he owned it. He ran out of money and time. Lesson 1, driving a work in progress is more fun than pushing a work in progress.
Years later, I built my usable 76 Ford Bronco into a show truck. The black and candy blue paint job was the best. But I didn't drive it as much, because I did'nt want to get it dirty or (gasp) get a rock chip in the paint. Lesson 2, driving is more fun than polishing. Years later, I own two classic Mustangs, a custom built rockcrawler, and a new GMC pickup and a hotrod,(Ratrod to some). Lesson 3, after owning lots of cars I realized the difference between basic transportation and a car that makes you happy.
My hot rod? I drive it. Will I finish it to a high gloss shine? No, no need, it makes me smile every time I start it up. Is it safe? 4 wheel disc brakes, full cage, harness.
Now for the history. Since cars don't offend me, I was influenced by the drag cars of the mid 60's, All the model cars I built when I was a kid. the Pro Street cars of the 70,s, and show cars from my whole life. When I saw my first rat rod at a car show, I "got it" right away. It all made sense. Big motor rough body plenty of attitude. A year later I was happily driving my own version. I got a top twenty award at a car show last year with it. The guy two cars down from me was about to blow a gasket. He went on and on about how his Camaro was worth $75,000, and there was no way I deserved a trophy. Geeze, he was all red in the face and looked like he was a step away from a heart attack. There had been a crowd around my car all day, and to that crowd, his car looked similar to the other dozen Camaros at the show. He got little attention. Did he have a good car? Heck Yes! I'd love to have a car like his. But I am starting to Ramble, Sorry. That' my two cents.

I read every word of your post, and couldn't find one thing in it I disagree with. It is very much to the point, and accurate. You didn't fault anyone else for wanting a car the way they want it, and yet you explain clearly why you want the ones you have.

Also, we think a lot alike as far as how more useful a car is if you can jump in it and actually use it, and not worry about chips, or a little rash. And yes, everytime I fired up my roadster the sounds coming from the pipes and the way it moved down the road brought a smile to my face. THAT is hot rodding to me too. As for trophies, when we moved to our new shop I put out a couple dozen for the trash guys, and only kept the two tallest ones. They were a pain to dust, and when I won one I knew there were cars that were nicer than mine there that day, but for some reason mine made some judge take notice of it.

Very good post, I enjoyed reading it.


Don

Don,

in your post dated 12-1, you mention belonging to a "rat rod forum". any chance you could share the URL for us?

thanx,

j

Sure, I don't think that violates any rules, does it? If so, sorry for my ignorance.
.


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Don

Now you went and did it don, letting out our secret hiding place, we will be banished for sure now, he he he