Thread: hot rod history ?

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Im gonna ramble a little, im feeling philosophical today ,and i started thinking about this whole rat rod issue, and started wondering has in the history of hot rodding ,has any other fad evoked as much contoversy and anger as this one? Ive been reading some threads on a few dfferent forums ,and its got me wondering about all this, and ive came to some realizations, and questions, ive realized that nobody can come up with a common definition on where it started or what it really is/ what makes a rat rod, yet somehow a movement has surfaced that nobody seems to be able to explain, not even the rat rodders, ive also realized that my explaination that i posted was apparently wrong, cause i have not been able to find another with the same veiw on how it started, and with no basis for a movement or scene how can it really exsist, or cause so much trouble, has the introduction of other styles or fads ever had this affect on the hot rod world? did the rod comunity freak in the late 70`s when all the pastel streetrods surfaced in the 80`s, or in the 90`s when the billet movement started? Im not trying to stir up trouble, so please do not turn this thread into an argument, if it deos go that way please pull it from the forum, i just want to hear theories and memories of the things you guys have gathered along the way, and how this scene might have came about, i want no critisism or saying others are wrong, i just want a little philosophic disscution


thanks, john

Also i want eveybody to participate in this, theres like a gazzilion members here but only 2% post, so lets hear from all of you, theres no tech knowledge needed, just thoughts

Being one of the older members of the forum, I grew up in the '50's, and there was controversy then over these "new fangled" overhead valve V8's and how they would NEVER replace the good old flathead. They simply were not correct to install in a true hot rod, as only a flatmotor would do.

Then, before my time, I understand the flathead V8 guys caught flack from the traditional rodders who ran 4 cylinders with Riley heads and the like. How could these upstarts forsake something that had been the cornerstone of the sport for so long.

But, nothing seems to have so many people divided as the love rat/ hate rat controversy. Maybe the internet has made this easier for the discussions to happen.

Great thread, John.


Don

Seems everyone hates change..................The old guys shouldnt let it bother them.....We will be dead soon enough.

That brings up another question, there seems to be conflict on the traditional front, some guys say they were this way, some say they werent,so if some say they were only in primer till they could afford paint, then is a primered traditional rod acually traditional, or is it merely a reflection of a stage a traditional rod might have went through, or did they really build them like that?

I can recall the '46-'48 era when "Hot Rod" was a VERY negative term, right next to OUTLAW. The cause was a lot of young folks who wanted to go fast and emerging technology to hop up the flathead Ford at a time when new cars were just becoming available. One way to make money in 1947 was to place an order for a new car, wait six months for delivery and then sell the car right away for close to twice the factory price. Such was the hunger for new cars after many of the '30s cars had been rebuilt over and over. I recall a local well-to-do type who had run through four (4) rebuilt engines in his '41 Ford by 1954. Simultaneously a lot of folks were dumping those cars they had nursed along during WWII and suddenly you could buy an early Ford cheap, chop and channel what would have been junked anyway and then add some goodies to a later Ford flathead. This led to a lot of street racing and many horrible accidents to the extent that the general puplic regarded Hot Rods as outlaw machines. I recall being cussed out at great length because I dared to use a neighbor's driveway for a turnaround in my stock '31 Fordor just because it was painted blue (with a brush) and had red wheels, such was the public image of any young person in an early Ford. In fact the guy said in effect "get out of here you HOT ROD!" Fortunately due to the efforts of folks like Wally Parks the NHRA was formed and the drag racing was shifted off the streets to sanctioned tracks and the NHRA did a good job of emphasizing SAFETY. That is apparently what is missing from the Rat Rod movement and in fact those cars may bring down the wrath of the public again if serious accidents are caused by flimzy rust buckets. I can understand the nostalgia of putting together antique speed parts and I certainly can identify with the satisfaction of putting together a hybrid car from various parts, but most of the so-called Rat Rods would make Wally Parks think what he did was being undone. Hey dull primer and blanket seat covers are fine by me as well as some huge hemi or Caddy engine on a fenderless, roofless roadster but how do those other cars get vehicle inspection stickers let alone NSRA approval (they don't). After several near accidents with the old mechanical brakes on early Fords (my Dad totaled three Model-As in the 1930s, and he survived but my MOM was pretty shook up by then) I cannot understand cars with only rear brakes and I had one Model-A rear come apart when the pumpkin bolts worked their way out so I have no desire for a flimzy chassis. The Rat Rods could/would be interesting AS LONG AS THEY ARE SAFE!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

This is kinda funny, 8 posts and were already off the subject, weve already tried the discusion on our likes and dislikes, and what we think about them, this is supposed to be about has any other fad caused the same uproar and what influences caused the hot rod world to get where its at, and also i see 18 people have veiwed this but only about 6-7 have posted, come on guys get involved a little

I stayed to the subject.


As for what the cars looked like, there was no ONE look. Some areas (most notably California) seemed to have more "finished" rods. I think it was because of income level and abundance of specialty shops to do custom kind of work. Where I lived (Pittsburgh Pa) most cars were more like the rats in finish (primer finishes with more emphasis on performance than looks) We also were poorer than some other places as far as expendible income.

The first really done car I saw was a '32 coupe out of California that migrated to Pa. Every nut and bolt was chromed and it was really done well. Our cars were not that well done by any means. Maybe some were, but not the majority.

So I think both memories are correct, depending on where you were from.

Don


Dave's post down below reminded me of one of the first "breakthrough" rat rods, if you will. I think it was Jake from Pete and Jakes (or Pete) who built that oxidized red '29 tub that had a blanket interior and generally was a little shabby. Because it was Jake (or Pete) suddenly it was OK to build something less than perfect, and the magazines heralded it as such a big deal.

The first Rat Rod I ever remember seeing was back around 1987... Used to be a guy who had a 46/48 Ford Coupe who used to attend almost every GoodGuys and NSRA event. Drove the car to each event and drove it around the fairgrounds the entire weekend. The car was slammed with steelies and everything else was aged and rusted, but the car had tons of attitude. I think most refered to it as a "Beater"... Building a "Beater" became the "in thing" to do in the late 80's and early to mid 90's and was considered a way to stick it to the "Show Car" Crowd, don't rmember it being so contriversial though! I always like the idea of a rod with attitude that you could drive and not worry about door dings and scraping over every bump. I also remember that was around the time calling your ride a "Show Car" started to become shamefull.

Don't know if that helps the thread, but that it how I remember it...

Dave

I became interested in '58, so I can't comment a lot on the '40s and '50s, other than the "outlaw image" that was held by the public. I have heard from the beginning that they were reading a lot of headlines, whenever anyone was killed by street racers. (Sounds a lot like the "sensationalist" reporting of today...."Only bad news is good news".) :-)

I do remember that trends went from open wheeled cars, to full fendered resto-rods, to non-Fords, to billet cars. Recently there has been increased interest in T-buckets and the highly restyled "modernized" fiberglass creations, but it's not as publicized as the "rat" trend.

I don't ever remember the clash between generations, that this seems to have. I do know that we, as young men, rebeled against our parents, but we always felt that the hot rod style of car belonged to us. Maybe that is the problem. We "baby boomers" grew up with the hobby, and we have made it what it is. Possibly, the next generation feels they need to turn all of our values (like the desire to build beautiful cars) upside down, believing that will prove their independence. I don't see much of a cure for this situation. The ideals our generation hold, include great workmanship, and solid engineering, are not easily abandoned.......especially after we have spent the last 50 years striving to improve them.

I will guess that the rat rod trend will wear itself out, since the classic "hot rodder" personality has always been the rebellious stand-away-from-the-crowd guy. When events are dominated by flat black, pinstriped cars, that appear half-finished, the rebels will once again look for a way to be different.

I also remember that was around the time calling your ride a "Show Car" started to become shamefull.

Thats interesting, so what was the distinguishing difference between a "show car" and a regular car, or was a show car a different style car than a standard hot rod

The ideals our generation hold, include great workmanship, and solid engineering.



i agree with that, it seems that older values got lost in my generation, and it gets worse with each one after, what roll do guys think ed roth had inadvertadly on my generation, cause his art was in my book the first of the low brow art, and his hot rod pics are out of this world, and those out there rods inspire me

The Roth phenomenon is enjoying a newfound popularity amongst the Hot Rod Kulture. I think it is because he represents the freedom of expression that young folks want for themselves, plus they are trying to recreate a period that he was a part of.

He was one of my heros in the mid-sixties. I drew his characters, or "monster" style designs of my own, when I was in jr. High and high school. His cars really pushed the limits of design, and I still personally admire him as an artist/craftsman. He had ALL of the skills...artist, designer, fabricator, painter, striper.....(I don't know about upholstery).....but very few master this many different skills, and also are daring enough to "go outside the lines" of established hot rod artistry.

I agree completely, i see roth as a true master of hot rodding, unlike foose and boyd, who to me seem to stick to one style and design, masters in there own right but nowhere near the creative artistry that roth possesed, i dont even think that the barris bros are in the same league, the thing that boggles me a bit is the fact that i know there were no cars built like the rat rods of today, but what influenced that vision in my head of cars that look like that, to make me at this age want to build a low down dirty hot rod, and obviously had the same impact on the rest of my generation, cause theres alot of these cars running around, or is it like you guys say just a natural rebellion against the street rods of the 80`s that we grew up around? and what influenced you guys to build the cars of the 60`s ,when all you had to go by was the hot rods of the 40`s and 50`s ?, or was i a rebelion against the muscle cars like we are against the ricers?

Your probably right, but i thought if i made it not nececarily a rat rod thread but more of a hot rod discusion that it would not, and im still disapointed that there is over 50 veiws now and only 18 posts

Don't be too disappointed, because what you are seeing is typical of any gathering of people. Take a party for example. There will be some people who are deep in conversations and others who seem more content to just sit back an people watch. I have seen it in company meetings too. Some people do all the talking and others take notes. It is just human nature.

I have had the same thoughts as you John, about how do we draw some of the lurkers out to actually post and join in. I am not sure how to do this, or if it is even possible. Maybe that is just the way it will always be.

But I think this is a good thread anyway.

Don