Thread: Rat rod debate

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Hey billy zz Thats funny LOL

I see a lot of similarity between the guy who spends $60K on a rod, but couldn't pick out which gear is the ring and which is the pinion if his life depended on it, and some of the most militant of the rat rodder types. Neither of them has the inclination to put forth any significant effort toward their car.

The rich dude I'm talking about is the one who writes a check for his ride but wouldn't dream of ever spending a day working on it. If a light goes out he looks in the yellow pages for "street rod electrician", and when it gets dirty he looks for "street rod detailer".

And the rat rodder I'm talking about is the one who'd never dream of learning how to do things right, or even somewhat right. So, he slaps together some death-trap collection of parts with this piece wired on and that one welded on in a manner that'd make Fred Sanford look like a craftsman in comparison.

One wants to buy his way into the club with minimal effort, while the other wants to build (of you could call it building) his way in, also with minimal effort. Both types also seem to often share an overdose of self-righteousness that seldom exists among folks who enjoy and engage in the hands-on aspects of the hobby.

Just to be clear, I don't lump the guys who go for a semi-finished but well built look for their rods in with the rat rods. I've worked in the metalworking business in one form or another since my first summer job at 16, and that was more than 40 yrs ago. Anyone who's done the same, or worked long term in any of the manual trades knows exactly what ratty work looks like. And they also know the hacks and cobblers who produce the ratty work are always among the most mouthy and in-your-face types of anyone in the trades. The point is, militant defense of ratty work is no new invention of the hardcore rat rodders. Its been around as long as men have been doing any sort of skilled labor, and its nothing more than a defense mechanism that some find preferrable to the actual effort it takes to learn how to not produce rat-quality work.

Someone up above mentioned the no-billet obsession of some folks. Personally, I think some people grossly overdo the billet thing, to the point of plastering any and every sort of machined aluminum part they can find onto a car, with a total disregard for taste. Nothing new about overkill of shiny stuff either. CNC machining just allowed shiny machined aluminum parts to replace similarly overdone chromed parts of 40 yrs ago.

That said, I'd make the following bet. I've got fairly extensive cnc machining capabilities in my shop. I'll bet I can machine 20 different parts from aluminum for a given car, and then blast those parts with the proper media to give them a cast appearance. I could then show up at the billetproof or nobillet or killbillet show of your choice with those pieces, and 9 out of 10 of the self proclaimed billet-hatin' super-rodders in attendance will be drooling all over themselves, wanting to know where I found all those cool "traditional" cast pieces.

I once saw a cartoon in Easyriders. There were 3 bikers, one a bagger, one an outlaw type with a chopper and the other was a crotch rocket. Each one had the baloon showing the same thought "These guys look like idiots".
If my hotrod got labeled today it would no doubt be a ratrod, but to me it is just a hotrod. I am building it with as many junkyard parts as I can, but mostly because I wanted a car in the spirit of the way guys had to build cars 50-60 years ago, when you didn't have TCI, Fatman, Flaming river and the like. If I had deep pockets I would do it different.
There are rude people on both sides of this fence. I say build what you like, keep it well thought out and above all safe.
The HAMB won't even allow you to use the words "ratrod" and probably because no good comes from this debate.
I wish the term would just go away and they could all be hotrods.

My final thought on the whole thing is the customer.... I've been lucky enough to build cars for any number of these "hated" people who buy their Hot Rods.. All of them I've dealt with are very successful in their own line of work and because of this don't have the time, facility, equipment, or experience to build their own car so they hire someone like me to do it. Now I'm old and semi-retired, but in the past I've employed up to 5 people in my old shop as builders, body men, fabricators, and all the other jobs it takes to build a car for a customer. I paid them quite well, always above the average wage for the area I live in, and expected nothing but quality work from honest, hard working employees... So anyway, these "rich dudes" because of their success in other forms of business had the money to buy the best parts available, go with all the options they wanted, and spend big $$$ on first rate bodywork and paint... and drive off or load their new toy in a trailer and take it home! Some even paid me quite well to deliver their new car to them!!! My point is, me and my guys had a blast and made a decent living building these Hot Rods and the customer got a first rate product for his money. Over the years these "rich guys" who don't know a ring gear from the pinion sent their friends around to the shop and we built cars for some of them, too. The majority were self made professional people who started their careers with nothing and eventually had the money to hire someone to build their car... Granted, they probably couldn't have built the car themselves, but then me and the guys in the shop couldn't do their job, either!!! I've built cars for doctor's, lawyers, a guy who owns 5 furniture stores, couple of airline pilots, a banker, and many other professions. Now I can't fly a jet, do brain surgery, or defend someone in court but what I do have is a lot of respect for the people who do that job and I certainly don't begrudge them the money they earn. It's called mutual respect.... Way I look at it, do good work, work hard, and excel at what you do and you can have a successful career, too.

Please somebody tell me why it's so terrible that some people who have the means because of their own success that they can afford to hire someone to build them a Hot Rod???? A lot of these guys worked 60 or 70 hours a week in thier chosen field when they were starting their careers, too. Is it really any different then you going to a doctor when you need medical attention? Maybe doctor's laugh and ridicule those of us who can't do our own surgery???? Do lawyer's call us names when we hire them to resolve legal issues??? Building cars for these "rich guys" allowed me and for a bunch of years the guys who worked for me to make a good living, raise our families, pay our bills and have a blast doing it!!!! So what if they guy can't change a transmission, he's probably very good at doing something the guy ridiculing him can't do!!!!! I'm not so sure that a lot of the folks who ridicule these "posers" aren't really just jealous because they don't have big bucks to spend on their own car???? Heck, work harder, get better, get more education and quit whining about your low paying job and do something about it!!!!!

There's plenty of room for all kinds of Hot Rodders and all kinds of cars whether you do it all yourself or hire it done. What's the difference, anyway??? Next time instead of bad mouthing the guy with the store bought car, why not figure out how he got in the position that he can afford it or maybe even talk to the guy and see what his profession is and how he became successful at it??? Just a bit of mutual respect is all that it takes.

Corey, You can call me a RUP if you want but....

My first street rod was a purchased completed, beautiful 1934 Ford 4dr Deluxe that was built and completed by Jon Kosmoski. My candy apple red car was in published books, magazines, and DVD's about how to paint Candy Paint. It was completed, yes, but I will tell you that as long as I've owned it, she has never seen the inside of a trailer and in the short time that I've owned it, I've put on over 9,000 miles and had to do countless repairs myself... Because just owning a nice car doesn't always keep it running by itself. So... you might call me a RUP - Just be selective of your words and thoughts...

Because of my 34 Ford, I have fully embraced the hobby. I'm right now constructing an 36 chevy 2dr town sedan street rod. I've ripped out the old front end and put in a Mustang II. I have fabricated new mounts for the radiator and created a lot of fabricated parts for the engine and dash compartments. I am now officially 2 years into the project working on it during my nights and weekends, just like anyone else. I rebuilt the 94 LT1 engine that I have for it and YES... it has lots of Billit and Chrome on it too. I really enjoy fabricating and making parts where I can't find something. I have never fabricated ANYTHING prior to this build and I have impressed other car friends that have been in the hobby for many years. This car will be a true show street rod with leather seats, full custom sound system, and the most beautiful Sapphire blue paint that you will see. I have not farmed any work out yet, and I doubt it will be when I'm concluded - Including paint. It's not about the money - It's about the passion.

I will tell you... I would never had even thought about the 36 chevy had I not owned the 34 ford that was completed. Crawling in, under, around that car and figuring every square inch of that car out made me come to the conclusion that I could do one. Maybe not BETTER, but my own and I speculate... I will be looked down on by one group or another. I will not care if you like the car or not... it will be mine and I'm not asking for your vote or opinion.

Now... If you got to the bottom of this message and wondering if I'm bitter... hey.. I'm not but I want everyone to be open minded. I have a common saying when I'm at car shows looking at others or when others are looking at my car. and that is "I don't care what you have, as long as it has an engine and 4 wheels, I'm excited about seeing it" - "but, I like cycles too....".

Dave, you make some good points. Like you, I'm self employed, and both of us depend on working for customers who have the means to pay for that work.

My beef isn't really directed toward anything but the attitudes some people display. Doesn't matter whether its the guy who buys a rod as his latest piece of ego-stroking jewelry, or the one who looks down his nose at everyone else as he preaches his only-steel-is-real sermon, or the one who cobbles up some death trap with no regard to safety or function, and then assumes the bad boy wanna-be attitude toward anyone else who doesn't happen to own an equally sloppy example of zero-level workmanship. I just happen to find all three of them equally irritating.

But, in every case, its a people thing. Give the typical only-junk-is-cool bad boy a sack full of money and he'd immediately decide a pro-built car is the only way to go. The quality of his ride might change, but the crap quality of his attitude would remain the same. Reverse the roles and put the rich fellow who happens to have a superiority complex in a rat ride, and he'd assume the thug persona to match. In either case, its not a car thing, but rather an attitude thing that turns the average person off.

Achieving the success and money to have a pro build a ride doesn't make a person a jerk. Neither does the ownership of an all steel 32 3W make a person a jerk. Nor does the guy with the rat become a jerk because he drives the rat. If any of them happen to be jerks, chances are about 99.9% they were jerks before they ever owned any sort of car, and they'll be jerks till they draw their last breath. I figured out long ago the best way to deal with them is to have nothing to do with them. They're all narcissistic toads who'll never do a thing to make your life more pleasant, and denying them any sort of attention hurts them more than any sort of tongue lashing or smack in the mouth ever would.

I've run into customers in my own business from time to time who've offered me work that would pay decent money. But a conversation with them leaves me knowing the profit isn't worth the price of dealing with them, so I decline the work. I'd much rather deal with customers on a basis of mutual respect, and make a decent living for my efforts, than to make exceptional money by dealing with people who demand you stroke their egos while making it clear they think they're doing you a favor by offering the work. Life's too short to do otherwise.

Dave, people who have money are always going to be badmouthed by people who don't. If I had money, I would pay to get a lot of stuff done that I now do myself, although I do enjoy the hobby. But also when I go to a car show or gathering, the "ratrods", for lack of a better term, always interest me more than the high dollar professionally built cars. I think that applies to a lot of other people too. Case in point, a few years ago I was at a swap meet in Chikasha (sp?) Oklahoma and there was a "ratrod" parked way out back of the parking lot all weekend. I finally got over to look at it, the guy had driven it from Missouri and was sleeping in a little home made teardrop he had in tow. It had a crowd around it all weekend and the time I was there looking, there were 2 32 roadsters that were immaculate high end hotrods. Both of those owners were eyeballing the rat, along with maybe 10 other people. No one was even looking at the 32s.

To put a end to my dilema I will ask the pros. Before anyone plows a head gasket, I mean pros with bucket loads of respect and not as a smart butt

OK has everyone taken a deep breath and found there inner peace?
Alright here we go.

What are my rods.
#1 is a 1927 dodge,It is not chopped or channeled,it has a 350 chevy,s10 rear end,ready to put a 31 desoto front end in it,drum brakes all the way around,Have not decided on the wood roof replacement,stained wood floors, changed our mind on color for the paint 3 times so it is in flat black for right now.
Is it a rat rod because it is flat black and no roof rite now?
Is it a hot rod because it has been hoped up?

#2 is a 1950 dodge wayfarer 2 door,was a fire chief car,it has beutiful original chrome and fire engine red paint but i put a 305 chevy in it.

Is it a rat rod because it has a chevy in it and the interior is striped and only has the seats in it?
Is it a hot rod because it has paint and chevy engine?

#3 is a 52 plymouth cranbrook coupe,it has 56000 miles on it,i lowered it and replaced the back fender(its flat black) and did a repair on one of the front fenders and it is flat black ,the rest of the car is the faded original blue,and has a surf board on the roof.
Is it a rat rod because i lowered it,havent painted it yet and has a surf board on the roof?
Is it a hot rod because of the mild custom work

#4 is a 93 harlet springer,its lowered,aped,tweeked out ,chromed,loud,5 gallon flat side tank, painted dupont hot rod black with a satin finish.
Is it a rat bike because its black?

I am no where near a pro.i am 38, but I have done a few vetts,did a 72 javelin 70s style paint, 3 2nd gen T/As,49 shoe box, 54 chevy truck,69 chevelle, 80 camaro with 396, even tweeked a 66 SAAB ( that was a fun car),72 mustang,built some pretty cool mud trucks,BSAs and Truimph choppers, a few harleys,I even did a 40 inch deck roper riding mower with a 650 susuki engine and 110 3 wheeler rear end.( fun but it scared the crap outa me, hard to keep the front wheels down),69 beetle and other cars.I love working on and building stuff. This is not my first rodeo but I am not a pro.Every project is a new experiance.

I will admit that throwing the RUP out there is exactly what the jerk did to me by calling my cars rats,Wich is was what I was venting about. I do apolagize.
Ya all got upset and took it personal, I should have made it more clear that I was talking about some local jerks (not anybody on line)..I am ussually a quite, layed back and enjoy life kinda guy but I let this jerk burn my biscuit and needed to vent.

There is another forum I am on (its a firebird forum)that is a great place to vent,talk about working on house or anything.Its full of members and friends that will help you out with anything from a run in with a jerk to putting hard wood floors in your house and remind you to stick with your goal and help keep you in the car world, they dont freak out and swear someone is talking about them personally. Its a forum for only firebirds,but not alot of them are into hot rods.
This is a good site for tech tips and part info but I have learned my leason and will keep it to a part or tech questions. I apolagize if I steped on any toes. thats not what was intended.

Originally Posted by metlmunchr

I've run into customers in my own business from time to time who've offered me work that would pay decent money. But a conversation with them leaves me knowing the profit isn't worth the price of dealing with them, so I decline the work. I'd much rather deal with customers on a basis of mutual respect, and make a decent living for my efforts, than to make exceptional money by dealing with people who demand you stroke their egos while making it clear they think they're doing you a favor by offering the work. Life's too short to do otherwise.

sign behind my front desk reads: "NOTICE. Prices subject to change based on customer attitude". it's a poke at fun, as much of my life is, but there's also a serious side to it and people get that pretty quick.

Coryvette,
As you've no doubt noticed , you've hit a raw nerve that many of us have developed over the years. please don't take it too personally, as you sound like a fellow who does have respect for people, as well as common sence about cars. sounds like you've had some nice rides there as well. any pics?
Don't be put off by the perceived harshness you've received. these folks also have a heart...... somewhere..... heart... heart... heart. where is that thing.................. oh well. it's here somewhere stick around.. you'll see.

Russ

Corey, Speaking for myself I do appreciate your input and your ideas. Were I think you are wrong is when you lump everyone who drives something other than what you drive into one little neat box and put a label on it.

I like shiney cars but thats me. I have owned what would have been rudly refered to as a rat rod a couple of times and I liked them as well, but they were not my favorite deal. I like cars ALL cars for the most part, I hope the fun hasn't gone outta of me just because I am getting older. I have also been known to drive cars I was in the process of building way before they were finished, and could really care less what anyone else thought of them. I already know what I think is cool, and need no instructions in that department. You should too!! Just because some Philgrim has a desparaging remark about your ride, Dont make it so. It is his "OPINION" It should never have an effect on how you feel.

The whole rat rod thing I think is funny. No wait a minute--- The debate is what is funny. There are cars out there that are commomly referred to as rats that are some of the best built and engineered cars in the Hot Rodding scene. And there is some real junk out there as well.

The real problem comes when folks start picking and choosing. Eliminating some cars because they dont meet some obscure standared. That has become all to common with the Rat Rod crowd, as I mentioned in my earlier post. KillBillet is the worse and as an example here is a car very well thought out, and very well built, self proclaimed by its owner and proudly so to be a Rat Rod yet it isn't allowed and in fact was turned away from a KillBillet show.



See it don't make any sense, I personally would be real proud to have that setting in my garage or even on my trailer.

Here are a couple more of very nice cars, homebuilt, from junk yard parts and welcome at any Hot Rod show I would think.





And here is a car that has inspired a lot of folks to build something like it. Even one of the posters on here.



And of course the CARTOON CARS.... Makes a feller ask the age old question of "WHY"

I wasnt trying to put anybody in a box and label it except for the yuppie that was labeling me. I was venting because I was being put in a box and labeled.
THE YUPPIE I AM REFERING TO IS A LOCAL PERSON AND NOT ANYONE IN THE FORUM.
Why wouldnt they let that truck rod in the kill billet show?
I have went threw a few posts on that site and yes there are some mouthy arigant people on there

LOL cartoon car. thats funny, is that thing even drivable?

Well Guy's, thanks for your thoughts on this subject. Some very interesting points raised and excellent food for thought. One thing I learnt from this debate (from Dave) is about trailer queens and I now appreciate is, the vast size of your country means that it is easier to trailer your car to and event so that all of your family can travel together comfortably to enjoy a rodding event. Thanks to to Hombre 259, is that what those cars are called, Cartoon cars, I have always referred to them as Ratrods and the other types in the photos as hotrods. Just goes to show,one never stops learning. We down under are still having this same debate in our hobby,so must be world wide. Interesting that nobody has raised the really old debate about .....Restoration v Rodding....

Corey, It was refused entre because of the Billet Valve Covers and the fact it has an Independant Front Suspension on a open wheeled car. Big No No I guess. But man all I see is COOL!!!

Cartoon Cars Huuuummm. These things are really something there dozens and dozens of them around. I have an opinion on them, But I'll keep that to myself....

And yea Corey he did drive it there.

Thanks again Hombre259, I absolutely love that Hll Billy pickup with it's early time camper,cooooooll.... But, I personally can not see the attraction in buiding something like those others as they must be damn awkward and uncomfortable to drive. Maybe that they should be referred to as trailer queens.