Thread: Engine & Tranny & Exhaust what should I consider?

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Is the 350 an engine that I could just buy a bolt on base unit and then "upgrade" it over the years? It would be cool to purchase some base parts that I can add or change items to add power later....any thoughts about building up over time?

Here is an article on a 1st Gen Camaro which got a 6 speed donation. I only mention the 6 speed since you stated you will want to travel cross-country on trips. With plenty of 1000+ mile Hot Rod trips logged with automatics, 4 speeds, 5 speeds, and 6 speeds, I really like the 6 speeds.

Most of the population can do fine with 5 speeds because they don't drive as fast as I have been known to do. Personally, I like open roads and 80+ with the air blowin listening to some travelin tunes so a 6 speed comes in handy.

http://www.hotrodlane.cc/Instruction...d/6speed1.html

http://www.hotrodlane.cc/Instruction...d/get6two.html

As for the 350s, there are so many "reputable" producers of "turn key" engines...you will have plenty of locations to research. Here are just a few places to go look:

World Products - Bill Mitchell
http://www.worldcastings.com/

Edelbrock - Vic Edelbrock
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...nes_main.shtml

Chevrolet Crate Engines
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/

Originally posted by Jerilynne1965
Is the 350 an engine that I could just buy a bolt on base unit and then "upgrade" it over the years? It would be cool to purchase some base parts that I can add or change items to add power later....any thoughts about building up over time?

Yes and no, yes you could put a new top end on it, heads ( if you wanted ) , intake and carb, and cam, but you couldn't do anything to the bottom end, except get a diffrent oil pan, as changes in the rotating assembly or bottom end without a rebuild, the bottom end is pistions, rods, and crankshaft. Coming from Napa, they do sell aftermarket parts, get the right small Napa, and they may put some aftermarket parts on the engine if you ask. As they carry the parts they put on the motor and most are built in house using those parts at least the Napa's I go to they are, they could like leave out the stock cam, and put in a mild crane cam or somthing and change to an aftermarket intake and carb, the bigger Napa's wont because there not supposeto but Small Napa's in small towns normally do, the 1 I normally go to, will do it. Mind you, it will cost more for the aftermarket parts, but probably not more than a few hundred. Some Napa's may do it diffrently on the way the recipte is written but, here, it's every part is wrang up, and then the assembly labor is wrang up, the total is what you pay for the engine.

Originally posted by Jerilynne1965
I've put on my outline that I want the car to have (no laughing please):

* a more powerful/faster engine (my current setup only does about 190-220hp and is a very slow starter)

* a really nice deep sound, I want it to be heard, but not obnoxious.

* manual transmission (because I think they're fun)

* a more solid suspension system

I have a million questions...some are:

What are the problems with that general overview?
What KIND of engine should I be looking at and why?
What KIND of Trans should I be looking at and why?
What KIND of Exhaust system should I look for and why?
What obvious things am I missing????

Jeri, the only problem that I see here is that you are looking at doing your car like you would redecorate or build your house. And unfortunately, the same problems will occur depending on who is doing the work.

A builder or architect would be like taking the car to shop and leaving it until it's done. A place like this would look at a PowerPoint presentation with interest and ask when you want it back and what you want to spend.

A building contractor will only handle certain parts of a build, just like a plumber or electrician. This is what a body shop, an engine shop or a chassis shop would be like. They will look at your presentation with amusement and dismiss the whole thing, ask you what you want, and what you want to spend.

The above requires you to be the sub-contractor. And because this is similar to building a house, a contractor may try to take advantage of you if they think they can. It's like paying for a 6" concrete basement floor and only getting 4" of concrete (yes, this happens).

It's easy to lay out what you want, but you have to oversee what you actually get back. If this is a cruiser, this is what I would look to do.

Engine: A GM crate engine. And this would be either a ZZ4 standard small block Chevy and this would come with a 2/24 mile warranty, or a LS2 Gen III GM engine with electronic fuel injection. I'm partial to fuel injection myself (always starts, smooth idle or as lumpy as you want without hurting drivability) vs a carburated engine.

Transmission: A T-56 6-Speed trans. These are available used out of Z-28's, Trans Ams, GTO's and CTS-V's. They can also be purchased rebuilt or brand new.

The best way in my opinion to take care of the engine and trans would be a complete, low mileage salvage assembly from some of the yards here in Michigan. The engine and trans complete, with the electrical wiring could be had for $3500 to $5000 depending on the mileage (if you're interested, PM me and I can hook you up with a yard that will take good care of you).

Rear End: Unless you plan on building up the engine, the rear end that is in your car should work fine enough. A rebuild shouldn't be more than $1000. A bullet proof rear end can be had for $2500 if you plan on having more than 450 HP and will be racing the car.

Exhaust: Not nearly that important. This is more of a final detail. A little more planning may be required. Headers may need to be fabricated for a newer style engine.

As for body and interior work, this will be expensive. A good quality, driver paint job will run about $5000. This does not include body work necessary to have it ready to paint, or any other necessary rust repairs. And a show type paint job can easily exceed $10,000.

Depending on the condition of your current interior, this can run $7500 to $15,000. This will also depend on the materials you wish to use (leather costs, just for the hides, can be $3000).

Redoing the suspension, front and rear will probably run $1000 to $3000 depending on who does the work. You'll want to seperate the front subframe from the body and replace the rotted out body mounts, too.

Tires and wheels can run the spectrum depending on what you want to spend. The wheels and tires for my Studebaker are $5200 .

The rest is on 'stuff'. How good is your gas tank? How about the radiator? Do you want A/C? What condition is the windshield wiper assemblies in? How about the glass? What about all the nuts, bolts, hoses, etc. that hold it all together?

I'm not trying to scare you on price, but your project looks rather rough. While everything under the sun is available for a GM F-Body, how much will 'everything' cost? What can be salvaged and what can't.

I have a $75,000 expected budget on my Studebaker. This will be five year, ongoing project with approximately $15,000 a year going into it. And the body on my car is in better condition (bought it in Cal.).

Your job is to be the sub-contractor. It's a great way to learn about the construction of your car. Before you start to disassemble the car, have the service manuals, body manuals, and parts manuals. Plan out what you want the car to look like before you start. I put a year into the planning stage alone and I know just about every piece, nut and bolt that will go on my car and who I'm buying it from.

Things like the body shop being used, and my short block supplier have been contacted and things discussed so a plan could be formed.

Again, if you have any questions, PM or e-mail me.

Tom

Jerilynne. if It were me, I'd build it like the one I'm driving now except for adding a 4 speed. The combination I'm running seems to fit most of the things you want to do with the car and gets reasonable gas mileage. Keep in mind this is a total drivetrain package and EVERYTHING works together.

Engine: First I'd stay with a Pontiac engine with one possible exception and that AIN'T a Chevy. The Camaro and Firebirds are basically the same platforms so a Chevy drive train will bolt in with Camaro mounts and exhaust and Bellhousing (just me but if I wanted a Camaro I'd have bought one . ). JMO but I personally believe the Firebirds, ESPECIALLY the TAs were a lot more car than the standard Camaro due in large part to the Pontiac engines installed in them. Additionally the car is just a lot more impressive from an ascetic standpoint with a Pontiac engine in it (again JMO but a Firebird with a Chevy drive train is just a Camaro wannabe and who wants to do that (No offence meant to out Camaro owners out there).

Now before I start into the details, just a little nugget of Firebird history; In the late 70's some Firebirds built for sale in California were equipped with the 403 Oldsmobile engine (instead of the Pontiac 400) in order to meet emission requirements. It's not uncommon to still come across these cars here in the western states. The 403 Olds like the 400 Pontiac is a torque monster and seat of the pants driving feel between the two engine is almost identical (I've put a bunch of miles on firebirds equipped with both engines). Additionally, should you ever end up in a situation where you have to bring the car back into emission standards It should be doable with these engines (although a major pain) as either engine was an option through the 81 model year (at least according to some of the reference material I have come across).

If you were building the car as a real street terror with no worries about gas mileage or tire life I recommend a 455 Pontiac/Olds engine motor. Based on availability, gas mileage and the real world driving you want to do I feel that a 400 Pontiac would be the first choice and if you can't find one or just run across a "can't pass up deal" on a 403 Olds that would be my second choice. Either engine should be a bolt in swap onto your existing motor mounts. I'm not absolutely sure, but I also believe that your existing accessory brackets will be a bolt on with the Pontiac engine (the Olds brackets a just slightly different and will have to come from an olds engine if you go that route.

The key (and I can't emphasis this enough) go with an EARLIER (76 or older) 400 or 403. The latter engines with the emissions heads and slightly lower compression just do not run as well. Once you have an engine do a good basic rebuild and LEAVE IT STOCK (did I just type that???? ) . Actually I did, The 400/403 in stock form (stock cam and intake) make a gob of torque at lower rpm. They do run out of steam at around 5000 rpm but you make up for that with gears that I'll get into a little latter. If you go with an aftermarket intake or cam keep them as close to the stock configuration as possible. Many of the aftermarket pieces DO help the engines make more HP and torque but it's at the expense of bottom end torque (with the gears I'll recommend latter this is a BAD thing). Go with an earlier non-emissions Q-Jet or a 750 Edelbrock Performer carb. A stock GM HEI (pre-emissions) ignitions will be more than sufficient for the car (you can and an MSD box if you don't have anything else to spend you money on, but chances are you won't see any real improvement). If you want to go with headers, you will likely pick up a little improvement, but you should weigh this with the hassle of installing them, reduction on ground clearance, and hassle of occasionally changing gaskets when they blow out (especially if your on a cross country trip). Overall The stock 400/403 manifolds will work fine on this combination. As far as emissions (if you don't have to pass an inspection) delete everything except PVC and vacuum advance (if you have an EGR, pull the vacuum line and plug it. At this point the computer no longer has anything to do . One last item, plan on upgrading to a 4 row radiator.

As far as exhaust from the manifolds/headers back, use minimum of 2 1/4" (preferably 2 1/2") true dual exhaust with free flowing mufflers (I'm running obnoxious burner out glass-packs but that's just me re-living my misspent youth ).

Transmission: You have some choices here and what you choose will determine your final gear ratio. The easiest and cheapest (relatively speaking) would be to go with an M20/21 Muncie (while a Saginaw 4 speed would physically fit, chances are it won't take the torque of the engine very long). This would be a bolt in with no fabrication using stock Firebird clutch pieces/linkage (Camaro peddles should also work). As far as a 5 or 6 speed or add on OD they wouldn't hurt, BUT look into the costs and fabrication required to install them. The engine I've described makes enough torque over a wide RPM range they don't really need a bunch of gears.

Rear end: As Tech would point out this is really the key to the whole combination. With a high torque low rpm motor you don't want a deep rear end ratio. From my experience you likely have a 10 bolt (if your real lucky it's a posi) with 2.46 gears. Believe it or not the 10 bolt is stronger than most people will lead you to believe, and should last behind the engine and tranny (unless you decide you really like doing hole shots with the 4 speed (then you look for a 12 bolt )) . While the 2.46s would likely be OK, with a stick I'd really look for something in the 2.70 something range. REMEMBER YOUR ARE MAKING A LOT OF TORQUE AND DO NOT NEED A DEEP GEAR. The lowest I'd go with this combo would be in the 3.00 range. If you go with an OD plan on something in the 3.40-3.70 range. Believe me these ratios will be deep enough to smoke the tires at will . You will want to add a Posi if your car doesn't have one or you will be replacing 1 tire on a regular basis. The beauty of these ratios is the car will just sip gas and cruse at highway speed all day long.

Just for general info, here are the specs on my 81 TA Clone. Stock 1976 Catalina 400, cast iron manifolds, Rebuilt/Re-jetted Q-Jet (Pre Emissions), Stock HEI, functional Shaker Hood, 4 row radiator with stock fan and fan clutch. The transmission is a TH 350 and the rear end is the stock 10 bolt with 2.46 gears. Tire size is 3235/70/15.

It will light the tires up at will, and the last trip I took to Phoenix it got 22 MPG at 75-80 MPH, temp ran 190-195 degrees (it was only a cool 90-95 degree day ), and that was with the AC on and was pulling my Harley on the MC trailer that weighs about 1000 pounds.

I know some of you out there might be shaking your heads (as I would be) but this combo just flat works.

Originally posted by Mike P
Jerilynne. if It were me, I'd build it like the one I'm driving now except for adding a 4 speed. The combination I'm running seems to fit most of the things you want to do with the car and gets reasonable gas mileage. Keep in mind this is a total drivetrain package and EVERYTHING works together.

Engine: First I'd stay with a Pontiac engine with one possible exception and that AIN'T a Chevy. The Camaro and Firebirds are basically the same platforms so a Chevy drive train will bolt in with Camaro mounts and exhaust and Bellhousing (just me but if I wanted a Camaro I'd have bought one . ). JMO but I personally believe the Firebirds, ESPECIALLY the TAs were a lot more car than the standard Camaro due in large part to the Pontiac engines installed in them. Additionally the car is just a lot more impressive from an ascetic standpoint with a Pontiac engine in it (again JMO but a Firebird with a Chevy drive train is just a Camaro wannabe and who wants to do that (No offence meant to out Camaro owners out there).

Now before I start into the details, just a little nugget of Firebird history; In the late 70's some Firebirds built for sale in California were equipped with the 403 Oldsmobile engine (instead of the Pontiac 400) in order to meet emission requirements. It's not uncommon to still come across these cars here in the western states. The 403 Olds like the 400 Pontiac is a torque monster and seat of the pants driving feel between the two engine is almost identical (I've put a bunch of miles on firebirds equipped with both engines). Additionally, should you ever end up in a situation where you have to bring the car back into emission standards It should be doable with these engines (although a major pain) as either engine was an option through the 81 model year (at least according to some of the reference material I have come across).

If you were building the car as a real street terror with no worries about gas mileage or tire life I recommend a 455 Pontiac/Olds engine motor. Based on availability, gas mileage and the real world driving you want to do I feel that a 400 Pontiac would be the first choice and if you can't find one or just run across a "can't pass up deal" on a 403 Olds that would be my second choice. Either engine should be a bolt in swap onto your existing motor mounts. I'm not absolutely sure, but I also believe that your existing accessory brackets will be a bolt on with the Pontiac engine (the Olds brackets a just slightly different and will have to come from an olds engine if you go that route.

The key (and I can't emphasis this enough) go with an EARLIER (76 or older) 400 or 403. The latter engines with the emissions heads and slightly lower compression just do not run as well. Once you have an engine do a good basic rebuild and LEAVE IT STOCK (did I just type that???? ) . Actually I did, The 400/403 in stock form (stock cam and intake) make a gob of torque at lower rpm. They do run out of steam at around 5000 rpm but you make up for that with gears that I'll get into a little latter. If you go with an aftermarket intake or cam keep them as close to the stock configuration as possible. Many of the aftermarket pieces DO help the engines make more HP and torque but it's at the expense of bottom end torque (with the gears I'll recommend latter this is a BAD thing). Go with an earlier non-emissions Q-Jet or a 750 Edelbrock Performer carb. A stock GM HEI (pre-emissions) ignitions will be more than sufficient for the car (you can and an MSD box if you don't have anything else to spend you money on, but chances are you won't see any real improvement). If you want to go with headers, you will likely pick up a little improvement, but you should weigh this with the hassle of installing them, reduction on ground clearance, and hassle of occasionally changing gaskets when they blow out (especially if your on a cross country trip). Overall The stock 400/403 manifolds will work fine on this combination. As far as emissions (if you don't have to pass an inspection) delete everything except PVC and vacuum advance (if you have an EGR, pull the vacuum line and plug it. At this point the computer no longer has anything to do . One last item, plan on upgrading to a 4 row radiator.

As far as exhaust from the manifolds/headers back, use minimum of 2 1/4" (preferably 2 1/2") true dual exhaust with free flowing mufflers (I'm running obnoxious burner out glass-packs but that's just me re-living my misspent youth ).

Transmission: You have some choices here and what you choose will determine your final gear ratio. The easiest and cheapest (relatively speaking) would be to go with an M20/21 Muncie (while a Saginaw 4 speed would physically fit, chances are it won't take the torque of the engine very long). This would be a bolt in with no fabrication using stock Firebird clutch pieces/linkage (Camaro peddles should also work). As far as a 5 or 6 speed or add on OD they wouldn't hurt, BUT look into the costs and fabrication required to install them. The engine I've described makes enough torque over a wide RPM range they don't really need a bunch of gears.

Rear end: As Tech would point out this is really the key to the whole combination. With a high torque low rpm motor you don't want a deep rear end ratio. From my experience you likely have a 10 bolt (if your real lucky it's a posi) with 2.46 gears. Believe it or not the 10 bolt is stronger than most people will lead you to believe, and should last behind the engine and tranny (unless you decide you really like doing hole shots with the 4 speed (then you look for a 12 bolt )) . While the 2.46s would likely be OK, with a stick I'd really look for something in the 2.70 something range. REMEMBER YOUR ARE MAKING A LOT OF TORQUE AND DO NOT NEED A DEEP GEAR. The lowest I'd go with this combo would be in the 3.00 range. If you go with an OD plan on something in the 3.40-3.70 range. Believe me these ratios will be deep enough to smoke the tires at will . You will want to add a Posi if your car doesn't have one or you will be replacing 1 tire on a regular basis. The beauty of these ratios is the car will just sip gas and cruse at highway speed all day long.

Just for general info, here are the specs on my 81 TA Clone. Stock 1976 Catalina 400, cast iron manifolds, Rebuilt/Re-jetted Q-Jet (Pre Emissions), Stock HEI, functional Shaker Hood, 4 row radiator with stock fan and fan clutch. The transmission is a TH 350 and the rear end is the stock 10 bolt with 2.46 gears. Tire size is 3235/70/15.

It will light the tires up at will, and the last trip I took to Phoenix it got 22 MPG at 75-80 MPH, temp ran 190-195 degrees (it was only a cool 90-95 degree day ), and that was with the AC on and was pulling my Harley on the MC trailer that weighs about 1000 pounds.

I know some of you out there might be shaking your heads (as I would be) but this combo just flat works.

Your a Hemi and a multiple carb guru, and you didn't mention anything about a 389 with a tripower, granite those engines are hard to find but it would be cool.

Jeri, if you don't know the engine I'm talking about, they were used as an optional engine for cars like the GTO's and Lemanns, they had 4bbl and a 3 2 tripower setup available.

I'm going to just have to copy/paste all of your posts and make a book to put on my nightstand, diningroom table, coffee table etc...i could read these 5000 times! Thank you so much for all of the time you guys have put into your posts!

Tom, You are absolutely right on about the contractor/house example. You're probably right about the part about getting laughed at...(or at least after I leave) lol. The MAIN reason I wanted to put together the powerpoint is for myself...because I keep buying crap I don't need (like the last 81 Rustbucket T/A) without thinking the whole thing through. I need the plan more for myself so that I can walk myself through the steps...once I have an overall plan then i'll know better what I need to look for in a base car...or at least that's what I was thinking. I was making impulse purchases...ugh, this looks like a good deal...NOT!

The other reason for the power point is to convince my husband that I need a little larger budget...and that I have a good idea how it's all going to come together. He's my SugarDaddy when it comes to the cash...he loves powerpoint and he loves lists and plans...so it's my hope to sell him on it...lol.. besides, it will save him thousands of dollars in psycologist bills...and it keeps me out of the looney bin with all these darn kids! LOL!

Denny, Brian, Dave, Matt, Troy, Mike...hokey pete...what can I say...if you think of anything else...put it here. I'm sure as I start putting these on paper (or computer) i'm going to have more questions.

OH! Mike, I have been actually looking in to the 455 Pontiac...mostly because I was looking at (impulse buying) a 74 Trans Am (someone put t-tops in it) and it had the 455...it sounds awesome...I don't give a crap about gas mileage or cost to drive it...long distance trips will just have to be more expensive than flying...but alot more fun! Sounds like your clone is a wolf in sheeps clothing...nice! I like the air conditioning and pulling 1K trailer also! Geez, My Turbo T/A with the 301 can't run and have the air on...it's a stretch to power the stereo lol!

I think we all buy stuff they we end up changing our minds on. I haven't bought a lot, but there are a few small items I already know that I don't need ("Hello, eBay?").

If the PowerPoint is for your husband, do it . Any thing to losen the purse strings! If you are looking for another car, I'd wait until you actually get the car. It's easier to make a plan knowing what you need to complete your project. I'd still suggest looking south of the Manson-Nixon Line . A lot less rust if it doesn't snow .

A couple cars I found on Collector Car Trader;

1977 Pontiac Firebird - TX

1977 Pontiac Firebird - WA

1979 Pontiac Trans Am - MI

1979 Pontiac Firebird - MI

Originally posted by Swifster
If you are looking for another car, I'd wait until you actually get the car. It's easier to make a plan knowing what you need to complete your project.

Really???? I was thinking that everyone else (hotrodders) did it the other way around! "I'd like to build a 60 Chevy" "hmmm, what model should I get" "what kind of engine should it have?" blah blah blah... You seriously mean to tell me that you guys find a car first and then do the build?

Originally posted by Swifster


A couple cars I found on Collector Car Trader;

1977 Pontiac Firebird - TX

1977 Pontiac Firebird - WA

1979 Pontiac Trans Am - MI

1979 Pontiac Firebird - MI

Another ??? I have is IF I would purchase a project car like one of the one's you found...they're automatic trannies....and MAYBE I get lucky and buy one that has like a 455 in it...which i'd want to keep...then what...do I have to forfiet the 6 speed then? Can I just dump the auto tranny and change it?

OK, so check this one out if you have time...i've been lusting over it for a week...but i'm worried about making a $4500 mistake...could I take a car like this and switch the trans?

http://www.transamcountry.com/forum/...ic.php?t=14612

The 6-speed shouldn't be hard to switch over to. It uses a hydralic clutch, so linkage isn't required. While some modification my be required to mate the trans to an older Pontiac (or Olds 403), it shouldn't be that hard.

I wasn't sure what cost you were looking at. Obviously, the better the origianal car is, the less work required to finish the project. The aftermarket T-Top could be a problem if you need seals/weatherstrips or other related parts. I'd wait for the car to hit eBay to see if you could get it a little cheaper. If you want air, the compressor not being there could add a large expense.

My thought in regards to projects is to start with a solid body and worry about other stuff later. I personally have a hard time carving up a nice original. I bought my car as a roller without an engine or trans. The interior is trashed and two of the windows need to be replaced. But the body is solid.

I would think in most cases the project comes from what lands in your lap as opposed to saying I'm going to build this. The Stude was there at the wrong time, in the wrong place at the wrong price (damn, I had to buy it). I'm sure someone with money can say, "OK, this car is next", but I could say that.

While I did my planning on my computer, it was more of breaking the car down by sub-assembly in my 'bookmarks' for the internet. I keep track of different parts and companies I want or need stuff from. Stuff gets added all the time. Now my car is going to have more of a custom touch to it, so I have stuff from Classic Instruments, Ididit, Vintage Air, etc. Doing a car that you want stock with just a driveline change won't require nearly the same amount of changes.