Thread: Return of the start "click"......

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OK Streetz....I will assume you disagree with his diagnosis :-)

Good call on the 4 try start too. I shall investigate further.....

I will ask him about the valves,.....and I guess theres nothing about what he said that is correct?...Any chance I misunderstood partially and he was just refering to the starter motor stopping in 1 of a few spots instead of a random spot>?

Or is there any credit to the conecpt that there is something bad in the starter motor like a 'bad spot' that if it lands there it will not fire until it has been 'click nudged' to a good spot>?

Sounds like im talking about a dog..."good spot! Good boy....bad spot! Down Spot!...Get off my leg Spot!"

Yeah,...I gotta garaeg,...but there;s not alot of room in there....I would prefer to do it in the driveway where I can slide in from the front.....don't ask :-)

NOTE: I have a 'new' "Powermaster 9000" 160 ft-lb Chevy Mini Starter installed now...(invoice says $139).....is that enough for a 454 with 12:1 compression>? I read that 12:1 compression should have AT LEAST a 180 ft-lb starter? Could that lead to starter failure?

I guess I will get under there and confirm ground and connections...the heavy guage red comes from the batt and I do notice that the heavy guage blue is a ground,...grounding on the underside of the firewall....maybe thats a problematic connection...perhaps routing that to the frame or block would be better?

If all connections look good,....and it happens again...I will get a new starter motor.....(preferably from an aftermarket dealer that will accept it as a return if I 'still' have problems)

Any recomendations as far as ft-lb torque?....Is it possible to get one with a remote solenoid since my current motor position is deadly close to the 'massive' headers that surely generate 8600 degrees? (Current motor wrapped in head shield)...

Advanced Auto has a pretty liberal policy,......but well see...

BUT WHAT ABOUT the ft-lb torque requirements on my 12:1 compression>>(see previous post),,,,..IS IT possible that engine requires a 180 ft-lb or 200 ft-lb motor and my current 160 ft-lb motor is heating up due to the higher torque requirements and starting to fail?......any logic here??

it IS TRUE that if a motor is torque underpowered and cranking an engine that needs more torque the motor will generate excessive internal heat and fail prematurely....(or so I have read)...?

It could happen. You sure that's a 12/1 engine? Are you buying race gasoline for it? If not, and you're using 92-3-4, whatever they sell down there, then it's probably not 12/1.

Yes Bob,....the engine is actually a 454 bored out again 30 over......and has compression of 12:1. Built recently by a very reputable and known shop in the Tampa area. Has about 300 miles on it.

I do run 100 octane race gas in it. Usually about 11 gallons race fuel with 5 gal 93 octane. Too much 93 and it detonates...very bad. Timing set at proper,...no advance or retard.


So like I said,....after just finding out the motor, even though it';s new....is a 160 ft-lb motor.......maybe its starting to go.......?

OK..Streetz.....not a bad idea but I do not want to lower the compression. Just don't. And money is somewhat of an issue....I only have access to 100 that I can pump into the car,...they also sell 110 w/lead but it is only legal to pump into a container....then off their property pour it in the car. This seems like a hassle...to have a smelly gas can in the car...plus I smoke cigars,...and I could just see this empty can of 110 in the backseat and the vapors ignite.....damaging my beautiful car! (forget about me)...

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THIS SWITCH! I understand the concept...but where in the 'wiring scheme' would the switch go....just onto the wire that lights to the coil? (My coil is an aftermarket doo-hicky mounted on top of the distrib in a big box)...Then when I fire it and when I hear the engine cranking I release the key and hit the switch to engage the coil/distrib?

""""HOW"""" does this reduce strain on the starter motor????Especially if my motor is under torqued for the job????????

That sounds like a great project for me this weekend...definately a cool idea. I WILL do it.....

BUT i am not sure if that will have any effect on the click, since the starter motor never even engages,....the circuit stops at the solenoid.....so it does not spin at all...hence whether the engine is firing or not will make no difference......CORRECT?.....Doesnt really seem like a solution to the click problem since it seems electrical in nature at the solenoid or starter motor?....RIGHT?

I spoke to a tech at PowerMaster (the maker of my starter)....and HE seems to point towards a ground issue. He said that it is not the best lb-ft torque for my engine,...but if it starts it fine...that is not the source of the click....it may go bad eventually from being under-torqued,....but it will get harder to start..etc..etc first. Not just a click.

He also said even if I find and fix a ground problem, the starter may be damaged...something about 'pitting' due to higher arcing?

So I guess until I get under there and check the wires for sure....I just wont know anything for certain about the ground issue.
Damn! Ofourse,..buying a new starter and having a pro install it correctly checking the wires and ignition and such may be the answer too....I just dont relish the idea of a $150 starter and another $100+ or so in labor to fix/diagnose........

Yeah,....I am in Clearwater,....riight under the big blob of white you see on your weather screen......supposed to get like 12 inches of rain in the next 24 hours......I will have to drain the pool down some and get the kayak out.....:-)
Time to hit the video store for sure.....

You talked me into it streetz....I think I can handle a 2 bolt unbolt/rebolt.....and wires don't scare me at all..that part I have experience with (well,....computer guts anyway..:-)
I got the tools for it.....been buyin lotsa tools since I got her...

And fixin it and learnin how was half my reason for getting it in the 1st place!

Since you started this:

1) Any 'special/sensitive' alignments I should worry about when puttin it back on?

2) How much of a hassle will the think 'heat wrap' blanket its in be to re-install? Do I just pull it off? How does it attach and stay put upon a re-install....

3) Advanced can bench test the solenoid/starter motor I have now to see if it';s all working?....That would reaaaally help.

If I can manage this one,....maybe I'll be ready to install those nifty chrome valve covers I've had my eye on! Although I hear stories about torque wrenches and exact screw pressures and screw order tightening......maybe not.....

Hey doc.
It's been five days you've been taking advice and you still haven't tightened up your loose wires. It's a two minute job. At this rate changing your valve covers will be a two year project. You'll probably wear out your keyboard first.
AL

OK AL......you better hope I do have loose wires :-) (so do I)...
The problem is that I must ramp the car in order to get to any of the motor/solenoid wires. There is not enough room in my garage to ramp it far back enough from all the crap in front of the car so I can roll my 6'4 frame in from the front of the car.....I cannot go in from the sides with the ramps there. And for some decent light as well,....this needs to be done in the driveway.
It has rained hard every single evening for at least the last 5 days....and it has gotten worse (check the news,...Im on Florida's west coast).

So there you have it AL,....the reason I have not checked those wires.
And FYI - I have in the 4 weeks I've had the car, replaced the headliner, sail panels, rear quarters, door panels, kick panels, removed and re-painted all the trim. Replaced all interior knobs.
Touched up exterior paint, re-finished sill-panels, cleaned up over 20 dead end wires in the engine compartment, masked and painted the block, masked and painted engine compartment, installed new alternator, new Griffin radiator and shroud. Whilst working 60+ hours a week.

Sorry If I cannot get to this fast enough. Figured in the meantime I would still discuss it with those willing.

Thanks for the help though....I will get to the wires, and email you the results...

Dr. Jim

Just kiddin ya doc. I usually leave that to streets but he's been too easy on ya.
I've been watching the weather down there because my daughter lives near Orlando. She hates snow. Now she spends nine months of the year trying to stay cool in front of her A/C instead of five months trying to stay warm. She works for a Mickey Mouse outfit down there. She used to be Snow White but quit that for an inside job.
It looks like tuesday before the rain lets up. stay dry.
AL

Worse than that Richard, he's got a nice set of Cal Customs on there now..................................kids!!!!! Ya dress 'em, feed 'em, send 'em to school, and then this!!!

12 inches of rain in one day? And you guys think it rains here all the time? I'm reminded of Cosby's first album, the one with the Noah bit. The voice comes from the clouds: "HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?"

Yeah...Nova means no go.....:

I know AL,...Streetz has been so busy being helpful he forgot to be a wise-_ss :-) Daughter in Orlanda huh? I've got some friends there that work in TV.....haven't visited Mickey though, even though I've lived in florida for 9 years now....the weather will be passing over the next day,....should be nice on Sunday. At least she does not have to worry about tidal surges!

I know about cheap chrome,.....and Bob, I am aware of the quality covers that are on there,...they actually look real nice after that engine cleaning. I will post some new engine pics with all the cleaning and re-paint....I can highlight some mystery boxes and we'll see who can figure out what the hell they do. More little boxes with wires than there should be, thats for sure.....

ASAP I will get at those wires and check ground and all connections. If anything looks wierd I'll fixit, if everything looks great and solid then maybe I'll remove and take it to Advance to be tested.

Thanks again for all the help,!....Some of you guys should set up 1-900-CAR-HELP phone lines,....could make some extra cash. 'Course I prefer the forum!

Ofcourse it had to be taken!......Figures.
You probably got $2.99 on your phone bill too :-)

Here's a coupla pics of 3 'black boxes' in the car....

- Circle "A" is probably somtin obvious! Laugh now.
- Circle 'B" from what I can tell has alot of wires screwed onto
a plate coming off it...otherwise it is a black box. I 'think' one of the wires from the starter solenoid is screwed on here..I THINK.

- Circle "C" is another mystery black box ......wires seem to disappear behind the block in a very nebuloous part of my engine,...and probably come out the drivers side and tie into all that spaghetti there.....

Figured this would give ya something to ponder whilst I check my connections....

The rain ahs stopped and it's drying up.....should now once and for all if I have a corroded or loose connections tonite!...
I CAN FINALLY SEE that I have a HEAVY gauge ground going from the battery top the starter motor AS WELL as the HEAVY guage pos. form battery to starter motor. My battery's third ground goes to frame in the trunk.....So my starter actually has a straight ground from battery,..NOT from frame or firewall.....