Thread: PLEASE! I need help with my first rod

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you could install the floor just like it was, some do it like that, most fiberglass the wood in. by pre fab, I mean they sell you an exzact fit peice that fits in your floor section, has the trans section cut out where the tunnel goes ( that is fiberglass, buy 1 from them if u don't have 1. ) you could make whatever you needed, by making your own template and cutting it out, use marine grade plywood, it rots out slower and is what most use, and T buckets pre fab floor is made of it.

Hey Don, thanks again. Can you help me understand what you mean by "so the glass won't draw in? and "a pattern on the outside of the body? Forgive my ignorance.

Wood an glass have different rates of expansion. If you glass the wood to the body, it may lead to a "shadow" of the edge of the floor pan visible on the outside of the car.

Pre-fabbed plywood would be a pre-cut floor made for your car. However, unless you know who made the body, I'm not sure how you would find the correct one. Cutting a floor to fit is not difficult - but marine plywood is a good idea. Painting it with a marine polyurethane varnish is a good idea also.

Hey Don, thanks again. Can you help me understand what you mean by "so the glass won't draw in? and "a pattern on the outside of the body? Forgive my ignorance.


No apologies needed. Actually, we older guys on this forum feel pretty good when we can offer something we have learned to someone who is just starting out, or who has some problem he/she is wrestling with.

You will be doing fiberglassing, and once you get the hang of it, you will think you have been doing it all of your life. It is a very easy medium to work with, and only really requires very few special tools to work with. Some of the things you will need are:

1) Regular polyester resin like you can buy in any Marine type store. Most communities have these stores, and some even have fiberglass suppliers. Shop around, there is a wide variance in pricing. Some will disagree, but you don't need exotic epoxy resins like West System. They are excellent, but for what you are doing, Polyester is great. It is catalyzed, meaning you put a very small amount of peroxide hardner into it to make it kick. If you didn't add the catalyst, it would stay sticky forever.

2) Glass mat and glass cloth. About 4 oz weight is right. Mat is the cloth that has the hairs running in all different directions, and cloth is the woven stuff you see that has the cross pattern in it. Mat goes on first, because it sticks better to the wood and to the fiberglass car. Then you can alternate layers of cloth then mat, until you build up the desired number of layers.

3) Paper and plastic mixing cups in various sizes. (Pint, quart)

4) Throwaway brushes. Buy them by the box of 25 or so, you will use alot of them.

5) Paint stir sticks.

6) Plastic throwaway gloves, but these by the box too.

7) A hooded paper suit. You are going to itch from all the grinding, but this will keep it to a minimum.

8) A pair of shears that you don't care about, because they will be covered with resin when you are done.

Also, go to the library and pick up a few books on fiberglassing. Even books that relate to boats are fine, as the construction techniques are exactly the same.

Get yourself a disc grinder, like bodyshops use, to roughen the inside of the body, and to remove all of the mold release wax in the area where you want glass to adhere. 50 and 36 grit discs are ok.

You will need a jigsaw to cut the plywood'

As for your question about leaving a gap, here is why you don't want the floor to touch the body. As the resin hardens, it will pull in the body slightly and leave the shape of the wood in the outside of the body. If you leave about a 1/4 inch gap, and just put your fiberglass mat and cloth to bridge that gap, this won't happen.

By the way, I actually use mostly mat when doing fiberglassing. Some people feel that cloth is stronger, but I build up a layer of two more of mat, and the strength is fine. I like mat because it conforms to the curved areas better. Cloth has a tendency to wrinkle. I also use a fiberglass roller very little. Instead, I take the paint brush I am putting resin on with, and dab in all over to force out the air bubbles and make it conform to the shape I am making.

Fiberglass is fun to work with, but you will be itching for a day if you get the grinding dust on you, so pickup the paper suit I mentioned and reuse it.

I'll be doing some glassing on the T bucket project, and will try to post some pictures as it goes along.

As for terminology, if any terms aren't clear to you, just ask. We probably won't tell you what the meanings are, because we keep that a secret.


Don

Oh, I forgot. Buy acetone in gallons for cleanup, and buy your resin in gallons too.

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Well, for one thing Jim...................he might be armed! He IS a postal employee after all!

Ah, Uncle Bob, as usual, you are speaking with wisdom.

When I made unkind statements about Doug's mail man I didn't consider possible consequences. Two thoughts come to mind:

1. I may not be greeted cordially the next time I take company mail to post office.
2. My wife's brother works for the postal service.

Maybe the guy's not so much of a jackass at that.

Jim

Excellent! I have made more progress in the past 24 hours reading this forum than I have all summer. I went out to the barn and snapped a few pics of the inner front wheels. Please excuse all the dust, it's a barn... the last 2 pics are of the old pedal next to the new one I will no longer be using since the MC will NOT be going on the firewall... thanks for looking, and again, sorry about all the dust.

hey uncle bob does this mean we get to see some cool pics? , don't let me say anything not
constructive about anything that has to do with fiberglassing! my dawg is still wearing a coat of that stuff
doug might get depressed and jump out his basement window

Yep............that brake pedal IS scary, alright. Good move recognising that.

The picture of the spindles and brakes is too close up to identify everything, but it looks like maybe Ford Econoline spindles (?) Shoot some more of specifically the entire front end, including the steering arm that goes to the steering box.

The way the steering arm is bolted on concerns me a little. Looks a little unconventional, but maybe it is just the picture making it look that way. Are those brakes the ones that were on the car?

Shoot a series of pictures standing a little further back so we can get a better idea of whats what. You mentioned originally you inherited the car. What is the history of it?

After seeing the way the brake pedal was done, you really need to take a look at every aspect of the car, to make sure there aren't some other areas that are done in a similarly crude fashion. Not knocking your car, still like it, but just giving an honest opinion.

Don

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Yep............that brake pedal IS scary, alright. Good move recognising that.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

The picture of the spindles and brakes is too close up to identify everything, but it looks like maybe Ford Econoline spindles (?) Shoot some more of specifically the entire front end, including the steering arm that goes to the steering box.

see below for your request...

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Are those brakes the ones that were on the car?

no, that is the new kit I just bought from wilwood (minus the dust... ) it is for a MII and seems to fit perfect.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

You mentioned originally you inherited the car. What is the history of it?

I don't know anything about it's history, and unfortunately the family friend I got it from doesnt either. Her husband had it in a storage unit for quite sometime when he passed away last summer. She asked me to take it so I did. (with a 23 ford title to boot!!!)

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

After seeing the way the brake pedal was done, you really need to take a look at every aspect of the car, to make sure there aren't some other areas that are done in a similarly crude fashion. Not knocking your car, still like it, but just giving an honest opinion.

Don

not knowing as much as most of you about this kind of stuff, I can at least honestly say the brake components (particlarly the pedal) are by far the worst part of the entire car. At least they look the worst.

heres a few more from further back Don. Thanks again for your help, all of you.

If I had a head scratching smilie I'd use it right now.

The spindle flange has similar hole spacing to a MII, probably why the bracket bolted up, but looks like it should bolt through that hole behind the axle too, not just the two in front. I would assume the spindle bearing spacing is a match to the MII if it bolted up correctly. But the MII didn't have provision for kingpin bosses, and the ball joint pickups were way further apart than the two or so inches these appear to be. Doug, does it look like the kingpin bosses are welded on? The integral steering arms for the tie rod are cast in similar to the MII (the Econolines were a bolt through arrangement rather than cast in and had a four hole flange rather than three) , and this is a front steer setup, similar to the R&P of a MII, but I'm with Don on that steering arm for the drag link, that single bolt arrangement is kinda lame, a double shear config would be safer, especially with a shoulder milled in for clocking.

Here's a picture of the Econoline front end and then a MII spindle;

I'm with Bob on this one. The spindles are really strange. They look like Econolines because of the bolt on steering arm, but they sit out too far, like someone has welded other stuff to them. There are only so many choices for spindles, and these look like none of them. The kingpins are Ford, I'm pretty sure, but the flange resembles none I am familiar with.

Bob, you are also right about the way the steering arm is only held by one bolt.

Hate to keep sending you back for more pictures, but if you could shoot a few more of just the spindle from a head on view, it might help.

The rest of the car does look pretty good and standard, at least what we are able to see so far.


Don


I just looked at the drawing Bob provided of the MM!! spindles. Thats what these are, someone has modified MM11 spindles to work on the straight axle. If that is the case, get these off of there now. Not only would I not trust the welding, but the geometry has to be way off, IMO

I just blew up the picture of his spindle. That is exactly what he has, modified MM11 spindles.

If it were me, I would lose these and buy some '40 Ford style spindles that have been modified to work with your brakes. I think Speedway and others sell these.


Don

Still would like to see some better shots of the spindle though. Can't beleive anyone actually built their own spindles!!!!

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

the MII didn't have provision for kingpin bosses, and the ball joint pickups were way further apart than the two or so inches these appear to be. Doug, does it look like the kingpin bosses are welded on? ;

This is probably where you all realize how green I actually am... Forgive me for this, but what exactly are "kingpin bosses" and "ball joint pickups"? Now i'm really feeling ignorant...

hey Bob, on another note... 36 Roadster??? Maple Valley? kindly check your PM's sir.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Hate to keep sending you back for more pictures, but if you could shoot a few more of just the spindle from a head on view, it might help.

My pleasure, are you kidding me??? I would snail mail these photo's to you folks all day long for the help I am receiving here. Back in a flash aaaas soon as I find out what a spindle is ... OK OK so i'm retarded...

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I just looked at the drawing Bob provided of the MM!! spindles. Thats what these are, someone has modified MM11 spindles to work on the straight axle. If that is the case, get these off of there now. Not only would I not trust the welding, but the geometry has to be way off, IMO

Well Don, I have a feeling your right, but, man I hope your wrong. It cruises at 60+, straight as an arrow without even touching the steering wheel (that is until the lame, single bolt on my steering arm sheers off I guess... )

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I just blew up the picture of his spindle. That is exactly what he has, modified MM11 spindles. If it were me, I would lose these and buy some '40 Ford style spindles that have been modified to work with your brakes. I think Speedway and others sell these.


Don

Still would like to see some better shots of the spindle though. Can't beleive anyone actually built their own spindles!!!!

dammit! sounds like your not wrong... Would it help if I took off the wheel for the pics?

Those spindles are scary as hell. If someone welded cast iron to make those spindles, they better be darn good at it.

The steering geometry could concievably work. With the tie rod in front of the axle, the Ackerman would be off, but that would only cause a tire to scrub turning a corner. The caster could be easily set, since that's just the tilt of the axle. Toe in is no problem either. The only thing that I'm not sure of is the camber. If it goes straight, the geometry is probably reasonable, but those cobbled up spindles (and I'm not dissing your ride - just the builder) would worry me a lot. If anything happens to one part on one of the spindles, you're in deep doo.

Suggest that you take the wheel off, and take several photos: one looking straight into the spindle, one from the front, one from the rear, and one from the top. If there are welds, try to show them too.

If you look at the line drawing I attached above on the econoline front you'll see the kingpins and bushings in the enlarged image on the lower left. Those correspond to the verticle, cylindrical shaped pieces in the full picture that pass through the upper and lower bosses of the spindles and the end bosses of the axle itself. The spindles rotate on the kingpins to effect steering (thus the name king, as it's the part that ultimately keeps the wheels on and allows steering control). The ball joint pickups are the more modern replacement for the king pin and fasten to the MII spindle in the second image at the upper and lower most holes that are in the bosses on the two legs sticking off the back of the spindle.

Don't be afraid to keep asking about terminology you're unfamiliar with, it's how we learn.

BTW, PM replied to.

Yeah Bob, that's messed up. It almost looks like the kingpin is cut on the back side of the passenger side spindle, among the other things you mentioned. I agree with ditching the spindles and getting a set of 37-40's if they match the kingpins setup...you will need new kingpin set and the disc brake mounts to bolt to the spindles. Since you have a nice looking T, keep the wilwood calipers since it is open wheel car...they look great. That will take care of the spindle part. Then, return the brake pedal to Wilwood for your money back and contact Total Performance Inc.(one of the sponsor here) they have been selling T kits for years. TPI has a pedal assembly that sells for about half the Wilwood product and it will weld in under the floor. You're going to need a 2 lbs residual valve upfront and 10 lbs in the back if you run the under-floor system. It sounds like your heading in the right direction and sounds like you have a good start but, whoever you talked to about the firewall mount steered you wrong. Stay closer to these guys for the straight talk on this stuff. Good job man