Thread: PLEASE! I need help with my first rod

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Hello folks, my name is Doug and I am attempting to rebuild a t bucket I recently inherited. First off, I have to say all I know about hot rods, I have picked up in just the last few months. Mostly here...
...soooo some of my questions may sound stupid and for that, I apolagise in advance... The bucket is supposed to be a 23. It has a glass body, sbc 350 engine, turbo350 tranny, mustang 2 front end, GM steering column, and a ton of problems...
FIRST))) I couldnt get the front brakes to work, so I bought a new Wilwood® disc set-up, including fancy rotors, hubs, calipers, flex lines and fittings. Polished tandem aluminum master cylinder, new brake pedal (the old one was real scarey), seamless stainless steel 3/16 lines, pipe cutter, bender and dbl flare tool, 10# residual preasure valve (for rear drums), proportioning valve (knob type), and a bunch of premium fluid. I think I need a few more items to finish this project.
I am in way over my head here fellas. I have never done any of this before, and I want it to be safe. If some of you could take the time to post your experiences here I sure would apreciate it.
I am planning on moving the location of the MC from under the floor up to the firewall (it's way too pretty to hide...) so the pedal I bought is a wilwood forward swing 7 to 1 ratio, and it's huge! putting my MC way up high on the firewall. Also... seems I need an adapter kit to mount the MC to the firewall. Where do I run my fancy lines? out the side ports, 90 degree turn to firwall, another 90 down firewall, one line up to front left wheel? where do I put my residual preasure valve, proportioning valves, and tees? also, do I need a 2 lbs residual valve for the front discs even if the master cylinder is up high? Will it hurt to have one?
SECOND))) I pulled up the wrotten floor board in several pieces, and cut out a new one from 1inch ply. Now, does the body have to come off to install a new floor board, and what options do I have for a safe new floor, if the ply is a bad one?
I could go on and on I am sure, but will leave it at this for now until I can build up some rep points here and contribute a little input as well. In the mean time, thanks again carbuffs, I can provide pictures if anyone needs them. I am looking forward to chatting with you all. Take care and have a great Weekend. Sincerely Doug Braun

first off, that's not an MII front end, it's just a transverse spring, front end which is what most all T buckets use. as for the master cyl, you might want to rethink putting it on the firewall, it would be too close to everything, just wouldn't work. I'v never seen a T bucket with a firewall mounted master cyl, I don't think there is a kit to put 1 on the wall for the T. as for the floor, it should be fiberglassed in.

Matt167 is right on all counts. You have a typical tube axle front end as used on most T buckets. And he is correct about the master cylinder on the firewall. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT IT ON THE FIREWALL. All you have there is fiberglass and wood, not enough to take the pushing of the pedal. It will flex and break loose. They put them on the floor for a reason, don't reinvent the wheel.

As for your brakes, you are getting too serious for your first build. Flaring stainless brake tubing is NOT for the beginner, or even experienced people, sometimes. It is a bear to do right. Go to someone liKe INLINE TUBES, and order the tubing with the proper ends on it. They will custom make it to whatever length you want, and it is cheap.

Next. 1 inch plywood is way too heavy. Use 5/8, and get a book at the library on fiberglassing. You will want to read the chapter on "tabbing" because that is what you will be doing.

If that is your T in the picture, it is a great car. Don't get nuts with it and start changing too much, because of your inexperience. All you will do is screw up a good car, and get discouraged. Since brakes are one of your problems, get an expert to set them up for you. You are playing with your life and other drivers lives, so the brakes have to be right.

Keep watching, because we are building a T in our $ 3K buildup, and will be doing all of the stuff you want to do, so there should be some good info for you on brakes, suspension, glassing, etc.

Just have patience, and learn a little at a time, and you will come out ok. Post any questions you have, and, oh, by the way.........DON'T PUT THAT MASTER CYLINDER ON THE FIREWALL !!!!

dON

Originally Posted by Matt167

first off, that's not an MII front end, it's just a transverse spring, front end which is what most all T buckets use.

Thanks Matt, for your information. I sent a close-up pic to Wilwood, inquiring on a new front set-up. they told me to buy the MII/Pinto kit with the dynalite racing calipers, so I did, and just assumed it was a MII front end, Boy it is a nice kit. I assembled it (after a crash course in safety wiring ) and installation was a snap. Is there anything at all on that front end that is MII/Pinto?

Originally Posted by Matt167

as for the master cyl, you might want to rethink putting it on the firewall, it would be too close to everything, just wouldn't work. I'v never seen a T bucket with a firewall mounted master cyl, .

I pulled back the fancy polished sheet metal yesterday to expose the firewall and found a typical mounting hole pattern for what used to be a firewall mounted MC, but it is too low for my Wilwood and would cause it to hit the valve covers when installed. as much as this is going to hurt, I think I am going to have to take your advise and put the new MC where the old one came out. Does anyone know if I can buy a brake pedal for the typical t bucket frame rail MC mount? I'll post a quick pic later today of the one that came out of it, and I am sure you will all say it is garbage.

Originally Posted by Matt167

as for the floor, it should be fiberglassed in.

great... I wanted to be able to drive it this summer. The floor I pulled up was not glassed in, but wrapped in carpet and sound deadener, then bolted to the frame rail. Is this wrong? Also, does anyone know if I can buy a pre-fab steel floor for a tee?

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

As for your brakes, you are getting too serious for your first build. Flaring stainless brake tubing is NOT for the beginner, or even experienced people, sometimes. It is a bear to do right.

I have been practicing my double flaring on some old boneyard lines I found, and thought I was doing a pretty good job. Are the seamless lines more difficult? Maybe I can take my lines in somewhere local to have them machine flared after I have them all fabbed. Not that inlinetubes.com does not rule (boy what an excellent resource), but I have already blown a fortune on the lines I have.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Next. 1 inch plywood is way too heavy. Use 5/8, and get a book at the library on fiberglassing. You will want to read the chapter on "tabbing" because that is what you will be doing.

I thought you might say that. I have this mentality that if 5/8ths is good, than 1 inch must be almost twice as good... I guess I was wrong again. Is this a weight or size issue? I'll look into glassing and tabbing this weekend as much as it scares me.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

If that is your T in the picture, it is a great car.

Yes sir, that is my T last fall when I first acquired it. Thank you for the kind words. They mean alot after overhearing my mailman mumble "what a piece of chit" to my neighbor... lol, never thought that would bother me until I heard it. Feel free to fling all the constructive criticizm that you may have my way, I could use it.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Don't get nuts with it and start changing too much, because of your inexperience. All you will do is screw up a good car, and get discouraged.

dON

Thanks again Don. I hope I havent already done just that...


Thanks to the both of you for the excellent response. Bring new to this area, I don't really know anyone that can help me here. You guys are it for me, so thanks again!

t bucket that is
doug these guys are 100% correct.....don't swamp youself with too much too soon!!, saftey first!
my 29'er has the master cylinder on the frame ,way too crowded up on the firewall,engine in the way, steering linkage etc,regardless of the fact you've got nothing for room under the dash!
i suggest you fix one problem at a time and then move on to the next!
doug you have a beauty of a ride

Originally Posted by braundc

Thanks Matt, for your information. I sent a close-up pic to Wilwood, inquiring on a new front set-up. they told me to buy the MII/Pinto kit with the dynalite racing calipers, so I did, and just assumed it was a MII front end, Boy it is a nice kit. I assembled it (after a crash course in safety wiring ) and installation was a snap. Is there anything at all on that front end that is MII/Pinto?




I pulled back the fancy polished sheet metal yesterday to expose the firewall and found a typical mounting hole pattern for what used to be a firewall mounted MC, but it is too low for my Wilwood and would cause it to hit the valve covers when installed. as much as this is going to hurt, I think I am going to have to take your advise and put the new MC where the old one came out. Does anyone know if I can buy a brake pedal for the typical t bucket frame rail MC mount? I'll post a quick pic later today of the one that came out of it, and I am sure you will all say it is garbage.



great... I wanted to be able to drive it this summer. The floor I pulled up was not glassed in, but wrapped in carpet and sound deadener, then bolted to the frame rail. Is this wrong? Also, does anyone know if I can buy a pre-fab steel floor for a tee?




I have been practicing my double flaring on some old boneyard lines I found, and thought I was doing a pretty good job. Are the seamless lines more difficult? Maybe I can take my lines in somewhere local to have them machine flared after I have them all fabbed. Not that inlinetubes.com does not rule (boy what an excellent resource), but I have already blown a fortune on the lines I have.



I thought you might say that. I have this mentality that if 5/8ths is good, than 1 inch must be almost twice as good... I guess I was wrong again. Is this a weight or size issue? I'll look into glassing and tabbing this weekend as much as it scares me.



Yes sir, that is my T last fall when I first acquired it. Thank you for the kind words. They mean alot after overhearing my mailman mumble "what a piece of chit" to my neighbor... lol, never thought that would bother me until I heard it. Feel free to fling all the constructive criticizm that you may have my way, I could use it.



Thanks again Don. I hope I havent already done just that...


Thanks to the both of you for the excellent response. Bring new to this area, I don't really know anyone that can help me here. You guys are it for me, so thanks again!

you can buy the brake pedal and you may actully need a new master cylinder for a frame mount application, but you can get both things at www.tbuckets.com

unfortunetly there is no pre fabb'd steel floor, even www.tbuckets.com basic kit uses a glassed in plywood floor. they do however, sell the pre fab'd plywood floor pan.

You are doing all the right things by asking questions. We all do that, and I am going to ask for help pretty soon when I start building my Chevy, because I am a Ford guy, and it's been 30 years since I have built one.

First off all, how did the brake people determine what spindles you had? There are no MM11 spindles for a straight axle. You either have early ford, 49-54 chevy, or Total Perfomance. You need to know what you have, and you need, in most cases to make some mods to get the new discs to work on any of those. Shoot some pix and post them of the spindles, and we'll identify them.

Yes, the 1 inch is too thick. Weight, plus it won't tab well to the glass body. You need to leave a gap all the way around the new floor, so the glass won't draw in, and the floor will put a pattern on the outside of the body, even after it is painted.

No one makes a steel floor, and you wouldn't want one. Steel doesn't bond to glass well, so wood is the choice. Just buy regular 5/8 exterior grade plywood, and it will be fine.

Don't worry about what other people call your car. People can be real asses, especially those who know nothing. I would be proud to have your bucket.

And when you start getting discouraged, get away from it for a day, or week, or month. Building a car should be fun, not work. My Son is getting discouraged at his '29 build, but he doesn't realize how far he has come in only one year. Building, or rebuilding a car takes time, lots of time. But it is a hobby, and you should enjoy the work as it is done for relaxation. (At least I keep telling myself that )

Post more pix of every aspect of the car, and well tell you what we think is good and what needs changed.

Don

PS Total performance and Speedway have inexpensive pedal setups that mount to the frame

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

You are doing all the right things by asking questions. We all do that, and I am going to ask for help pretty soon when I start building my Chevy, because I am a Ford guy, and it's been 30 years since I have built one.

First off all, how did the brake people determine what spindles you had? There are no MM11 spindles for a straight axle. You either have early ford, 49-54 chevy, or Total Perfomance. You need to know what you have, and you need, in most cases to make some mods to get the new discs to work on any of those. Shoot some pix and post them of the spindles, and we'll identify them.

Yes, the 1 inch is too thick. Weight, plus it won't tab well to the glass body. You need to leave a gap all the way around the new floor, so the glass won't draw in, and the floor will put a pattern on the outside of the body, even after it is painted.

No one makes a steel floor, and you wouldn't want one. Steel doesn't bond to glass well, so wood is the choice. Just buy regular 5/8 exterior grade plywood, and it will be fine.

Don't worry about what other people call your car. People can be real asses, especially those who know nothing. I would be proud to have your bucket.

And when you start getting discouraged, get away from it for a day, or week, or month. Building a car should be fun, not work. My Son is getting discouraged at his '29 build, but he doesn't realize how far he has come in only one year. Building, or rebuilding a car takes time, lots of time. But it is a hobby, and you should enjoy the work as it is done for relaxation. (At least I keep telling myself that )

Post more pix of every aspect of the car, and well tell you what we think is good and what needs changed.

Don

PS Total performance and Speedway have inexpensive pedal setups that mount to the frame

he could also have '37-'48 Ford spindles.

Yeah, I should have specified, I just said "early Ford"

Don

Just to add to what Matt and Don have been saying that is generally correct; you're RE-building a car so pictures of where you're starting would be EXTREMELY helpful in giving you more direct advice about your specific issues rather than generally good advice that may or may not be appropo.

As an example; you say you've already taken up bad flooring, but, since you didn't clarify, is the body still on the frame? If so, that would mean there's a structure there holding the body (thus already bonded ) that the flooring you took up could attach to rather than bonding the new flooring to the body as Don has described. Or, you may have to deal with that too. He may be right, and certainly would be on new construction, but based on what you've told us so far there may be other alternatives. Likewise for the brakes. It may be that they weren't working correctly because the caliper pistons "froze" in the housings. If the plumbing that was already there was still good, a caliper overhaul or replacement may have solved that part of your problem. The scary pedal/m.c. mount could be dealt with as Matt suggested.

To answer your question about the seamless tubing, it's more a matter of the stainless being more brittle than the tubing steel of "normal" lines. It's especially more difficult to double flair. That's why most stainless systems are done with single flair and AN fittigs that utilize a ferrel. Those are also done at 37 degrees, rather than 45 (different tool).

Gotta love your ambition and enthusiasm! Just might want to temper that with a little more considered approach before throwing parts at the situation. Although, most of us have learned that (hard) way.

Gotta love your ambition and enthusiasm! Just might want to temper that with a little more considered approach before throwing parts at the situation. Although, most of us have learned that (hard) way.


As usual, Bob is right. The biggest mistake inexperienced builders make is starting to throw expensive parts at a project, rather than fixing the foundation first.

As an example, a few years ago we bought a T bucket kit from a guy who bought an old project and was redoing it. We paid $ 1500.00 for it, even though the frame was trashed and the body was horrible. BUT, he had been buying stuff like Total performance gas tanks, disc emergency brake setups, chrome windshield, chrome wheels and wide whites, lokar shifter, fancy gauges, custom turnsignals, engine dress up goodies, etc, etc. He had about $ 4000.00 in chrome stuff stuck under his bed, in his closet, everywhere. He finally got fed up, and dumped it. Instead of fixing the frame and running gear, he was busy buying all that neat looking hot rod stuff that shines and impresses your friends.

We see you heading in the same direction, and want to see you avoid that, if possible.

Send pix and keep asking questions. You're on the right track.


Don

Doug -

Quoting your mailman: "What a piece of chit"..........

How nice! Just what qualifies some jackass toting a mail bag to judge your project?

Shakespeare is usually given credit for the quotation "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Well, by the same token, "CHIT" is also in the eye of the beholder.

Sic your dog on that damn postman.

There are some very talented and knowledgeable people in this group who will help you every step of the way toward making your car just what you want it to be, and thoroughly enjoy the process.

And every one has, at one time, had his or her first project.

Good luck, my man!

Jim

Originally Posted by Big Tracks

Doug -

Quoting your mailman: "What a piece of chit"..........

How nice! Just what qualifies some jackass toting a mail bag to judge your project?

Jim

Well, for one thing Jim...................he might be armed! He IS a postal employee after all!

Yeah, NOBODY upsets the mailman anymore.


Don

WOW, this is incredible. I looked at my thread and was shocked to see so much help. This is an excellent forum with a group of folks I wish were my neighbors (and postman). Thank you everyone for taking the time to contribute and being so friendly.

Originally Posted by DONNIE G

t bucket that is
i suggest you fix one problem at a time and then move on to the next!
doug you have a beauty of a ride

Thanks DONNIE G, for your input. I underestimated the projects at hand thinking, well.. I have all winter to get this stuff done. Now the darn thing is torn apart, and after talking to you folks, the beautiful "light-at-the-end-of-the-T-tunnell", seems to be getting smaller... HOWEVER... I thank my lucky stars I didnt go through with any of this before checking in here first.

Originally Posted by Matt167

you can buy the brake pedal and you may actully need a new master cylinder for a frame mount application, but you can get both things at www.tbuckets.com unfortunetly there is no pre fabb'd steel floor, even www.tbuckets.com basic kit uses a glassed in plywood floor. they do however, sell the pre fab'd plywood floor pan.

Thanks again Matt. It looks like my new MC will fit where the old one was without any trouble. Is there something I am overlooking with that application? Also, what does pre-fab'd plywood mean exactly? It seems like there should be another way to install the floor without glass, is this the best way, or the only way?

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

First of all, how did the brake people determine what spindles you had? There are no MM11 spindles for a straight axle. You either have early ford, 49-54 chevy, or Total Perfomance. You need to know what you have, and you need, in most cases to make some mods to get the new discs to work on any of those. Shoot some pix and post them of the spindles, and we'll identify them.

I sent Wilwood a pic and they said MII. I ordered the MII and sure enough, it fit right on with no problems. Sooo I am confused about this one since I have no dought what-so-ever that you fine folk know exactly what your talking about. I'll take some pics later today as soon as my camera battery charges.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

You need to leave a gap all the way around the new floor, so the glass won't draw in, and the floor will put a pattern on the outside of the body, even after it is painted.

Hey Don, thanks again. Can you help me understand what you mean by "so the glass won't draw in? and "a pattern on the outside of the body? Forgive my ignorance.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Don't worry about what other people call your car. People can be real asses, especially those who know nothing. I would be proud to have your bucket.

I've never been one who requires a pat on the back when I'm down, but it sure is nice. Thank you for that sir.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Post more pix of every aspect of the car, and well tell you what we think is good and what needs changed.

Don

Will do just that later today.

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Just to add to what Matt and Don have been saying that is generally correct; you're RE-building a car so pictures of where you're starting would be EXTREMELY helpful in giving you more direct advice about your specific issues rather than generally good advice that may or may not be appropo.

As an example; you say you've already taken up bad flooring, but, since you didn't clarify, is the body still on the frame? If so, that would mean there's a structure there holding the body (thus already bonded ) that the flooring you took up could attach to rather than bonding the new flooring to the body as Don has described. Or, you may have to deal with that too. He may be right, and certainly would be on new construction, but based on what you've told us so far there may be other alternatives. Likewise for the brakes. It may be that they weren't working correctly because the caliper pistons "froze" in the housings. If the plumbing that was already there was still good, a caliper overhaul or replacement may have solved that part of your problem. The scary pedal/m.c. mount could be dealt with as Matt suggested.

To answer your question about the seamless tubing, it's more a matter of the stainless being more brittle than the tubing steel of "normal" lines. It's especially more difficult to double flair. That's why most stainless systems are done with single flair and AN fittigs that utilize a ferrel. Those are also done at 37 degrees, rather than 45 (different tool).

Gotta love your ambition and enthusiasm! Just might want to temper that with a little more considered approach before throwing parts at the situation. Although, most of us have learned that (hard) way.

Thanks Bob, I would be very interested to hear more of your input after I post some pics. I hate to say it, but alot of the terminology used here all seems Greek to me being so green. I hope y'all can forgive my ignorance.
Sincerely Doug Braun (aka braundc) Junction City, Oregon

edited by braundc for stupid spelling errors.