Thread: PLEASE! I need help with my first rod

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Hello folks, my name is Doug and I am attempting to rebuild a t bucket I recently inherited. First off, I have to say all I know about hot rods, I have picked up in just the last few months. Mostly here...
...soooo some of my questions may sound stupid and for that, I apolagise in advance... The bucket is supposed to be a 23. It has a glass body, sbc 350 engine, turbo350 tranny, mustang 2 front end, GM steering column, and a ton of problems...
FIRST))) I couldnt get the front brakes to work, so I bought a new Wilwood® disc set-up, including fancy rotors, hubs, calipers, flex lines and fittings. Polished tandem aluminum master cylinder, new brake pedal (the old one was real scarey), seamless stainless steel 3/16 lines, pipe cutter, bender and dbl flare tool, 10# residual preasure valve (for rear drums), proportioning valve (knob type), and a bunch of premium fluid. I think I need a few more items to finish this project.
I am in way over my head here fellas. I have never done any of this before, and I want it to be safe. If some of you could take the time to post your experiences here I sure would apreciate it.
I am planning on moving the location of the MC from under the floor up to the firewall (it's way too pretty to hide...) so the pedal I bought is a wilwood forward swing 7 to 1 ratio, and it's huge! putting my MC way up high on the firewall. Also... seems I need an adapter kit to mount the MC to the firewall. Where do I run my fancy lines? out the side ports, 90 degree turn to firwall, another 90 down firewall, one line up to front left wheel? where do I put my residual preasure valve, proportioning valves, and tees? also, do I need a 2 lbs residual valve for the front discs even if the master cylinder is up high? Will it hurt to have one?
SECOND))) I pulled up the wrotten floor board in several pieces, and cut out a new one from 1inch ply. Now, does the body have to come off to install a new floor board, and what options do I have for a safe new floor, if the ply is a bad one?
I could go on and on I am sure, but will leave it at this for now until I can build up some rep points here and contribute a little input as well. In the mean time, thanks again carbuffs, I can provide pictures if anyone needs them. I am looking forward to chatting with you all. Take care and have a great Weekend. Sincerely Doug Braun

first off, that's not an MII front end, it's just a transverse spring, front end which is what most all T buckets use. as for the master cyl, you might want to rethink putting it on the firewall, it would be too close to everything, just wouldn't work. I'v never seen a T bucket with a firewall mounted master cyl, I don't think there is a kit to put 1 on the wall for the T. as for the floor, it should be fiberglassed in.

Matt167 is right on all counts. You have a typical tube axle front end as used on most T buckets. And he is correct about the master cylinder on the firewall. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PUT IT ON THE FIREWALL. All you have there is fiberglass and wood, not enough to take the pushing of the pedal. It will flex and break loose. They put them on the floor for a reason, don't reinvent the wheel.

As for your brakes, you are getting too serious for your first build. Flaring stainless brake tubing is NOT for the beginner, or even experienced people, sometimes. It is a bear to do right. Go to someone liKe INLINE TUBES, and order the tubing with the proper ends on it. They will custom make it to whatever length you want, and it is cheap.

Next. 1 inch plywood is way too heavy. Use 5/8, and get a book at the library on fiberglassing. You will want to read the chapter on "tabbing" because that is what you will be doing.

If that is your T in the picture, it is a great car. Don't get nuts with it and start changing too much, because of your inexperience. All you will do is screw up a good car, and get discouraged. Since brakes are one of your problems, get an expert to set them up for you. You are playing with your life and other drivers lives, so the brakes have to be right.

Keep watching, because we are building a T in our $ 3K buildup, and will be doing all of the stuff you want to do, so there should be some good info for you on brakes, suspension, glassing, etc.

Just have patience, and learn a little at a time, and you will come out ok. Post any questions you have, and, oh, by the way.........DON'T PUT THAT MASTER CYLINDER ON THE FIREWALL !!!!

dON

Originally Posted by Matt167

first off, that's not an MII front end, it's just a transverse spring, front end which is what most all T buckets use.

Thanks Matt, for your information. I sent a close-up pic to Wilwood, inquiring on a new front set-up. they told me to buy the MII/Pinto kit with the dynalite racing calipers, so I did, and just assumed it was a MII front end, Boy it is a nice kit. I assembled it (after a crash course in safety wiring ) and installation was a snap. Is there anything at all on that front end that is MII/Pinto?

Originally Posted by Matt167

as for the master cyl, you might want to rethink putting it on the firewall, it would be too close to everything, just wouldn't work. I'v never seen a T bucket with a firewall mounted master cyl, .

I pulled back the fancy polished sheet metal yesterday to expose the firewall and found a typical mounting hole pattern for what used to be a firewall mounted MC, but it is too low for my Wilwood and would cause it to hit the valve covers when installed. as much as this is going to hurt, I think I am going to have to take your advise and put the new MC where the old one came out. Does anyone know if I can buy a brake pedal for the typical t bucket frame rail MC mount? I'll post a quick pic later today of the one that came out of it, and I am sure you will all say it is garbage.

Originally Posted by Matt167

as for the floor, it should be fiberglassed in.

great... I wanted to be able to drive it this summer. The floor I pulled up was not glassed in, but wrapped in carpet and sound deadener, then bolted to the frame rail. Is this wrong? Also, does anyone know if I can buy a pre-fab steel floor for a tee?

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

As for your brakes, you are getting too serious for your first build. Flaring stainless brake tubing is NOT for the beginner, or even experienced people, sometimes. It is a bear to do right.

I have been practicing my double flaring on some old boneyard lines I found, and thought I was doing a pretty good job. Are the seamless lines more difficult? Maybe I can take my lines in somewhere local to have them machine flared after I have them all fabbed. Not that inlinetubes.com does not rule (boy what an excellent resource), but I have already blown a fortune on the lines I have.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Next. 1 inch plywood is way too heavy. Use 5/8, and get a book at the library on fiberglassing. You will want to read the chapter on "tabbing" because that is what you will be doing.

I thought you might say that. I have this mentality that if 5/8ths is good, than 1 inch must be almost twice as good... I guess I was wrong again. Is this a weight or size issue? I'll look into glassing and tabbing this weekend as much as it scares me.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

If that is your T in the picture, it is a great car.

Yes sir, that is my T last fall when I first acquired it. Thank you for the kind words. They mean alot after overhearing my mailman mumble "what a piece of chit" to my neighbor... lol, never thought that would bother me until I heard it. Feel free to fling all the constructive criticizm that you may have my way, I could use it.

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Don't get nuts with it and start changing too much, because of your inexperience. All you will do is screw up a good car, and get discouraged.

dON

Thanks again Don. I hope I havent already done just that...


Thanks to the both of you for the excellent response. Bring new to this area, I don't really know anyone that can help me here. You guys are it for me, so thanks again!

t bucket that is
doug these guys are 100% correct.....don't swamp youself with too much too soon!!, saftey first!
my 29'er has the master cylinder on the frame ,way too crowded up on the firewall,engine in the way, steering linkage etc,regardless of the fact you've got nothing for room under the dash!
i suggest you fix one problem at a time and then move on to the next!
doug you have a beauty of a ride

Originally Posted by braundc

Thanks Matt, for your information. I sent a close-up pic to Wilwood, inquiring on a new front set-up. they told me to buy the MII/Pinto kit with the dynalite racing calipers, so I did, and just assumed it was a MII front end, Boy it is a nice kit. I assembled it (after a crash course in safety wiring ) and installation was a snap. Is there anything at all on that front end that is MII/Pinto?




I pulled back the fancy polished sheet metal yesterday to expose the firewall and found a typical mounting hole pattern for what used to be a firewall mounted MC, but it is too low for my Wilwood and would cause it to hit the valve covers when installed. as much as this is going to hurt, I think I am going to have to take your advise and put the new MC where the old one came out. Does anyone know if I can buy a brake pedal for the typical t bucket frame rail MC mount? I'll post a quick pic later today of the one that came out of it, and I am sure you will all say it is garbage.



great... I wanted to be able to drive it this summer. The floor I pulled up was not glassed in, but wrapped in carpet and sound deadener, then bolted to the frame rail. Is this wrong? Also, does anyone know if I can buy a pre-fab steel floor for a tee?




I have been practicing my double flaring on some old boneyard lines I found, and thought I was doing a pretty good job. Are the seamless lines more difficult? Maybe I can take my lines in somewhere local to have them machine flared after I have them all fabbed. Not that inlinetubes.com does not rule (boy what an excellent resource), but I have already blown a fortune on the lines I have.



I thought you might say that. I have this mentality that if 5/8ths is good, than 1 inch must be almost twice as good... I guess I was wrong again. Is this a weight or size issue? I'll look into glassing and tabbing this weekend as much as it scares me.



Yes sir, that is my T last fall when I first acquired it. Thank you for the kind words. They mean alot after overhearing my mailman mumble "what a piece of chit" to my neighbor... lol, never thought that would bother me until I heard it. Feel free to fling all the constructive criticizm that you may have my way, I could use it.



Thanks again Don. I hope I havent already done just that...


Thanks to the both of you for the excellent response. Bring new to this area, I don't really know anyone that can help me here. You guys are it for me, so thanks again!

you can buy the brake pedal and you may actully need a new master cylinder for a frame mount application, but you can get both things at www.tbuckets.com

unfortunetly there is no pre fabb'd steel floor, even www.tbuckets.com basic kit uses a glassed in plywood floor. they do however, sell the pre fab'd plywood floor pan.

You are doing all the right things by asking questions. We all do that, and I am going to ask for help pretty soon when I start building my Chevy, because I am a Ford guy, and it's been 30 years since I have built one.

First off all, how did the brake people determine what spindles you had? There are no MM11 spindles for a straight axle. You either have early ford, 49-54 chevy, or Total Perfomance. You need to know what you have, and you need, in most cases to make some mods to get the new discs to work on any of those. Shoot some pix and post them of the spindles, and we'll identify them.

Yes, the 1 inch is too thick. Weight, plus it won't tab well to the glass body. You need to leave a gap all the way around the new floor, so the glass won't draw in, and the floor will put a pattern on the outside of the body, even after it is painted.

No one makes a steel floor, and you wouldn't want one. Steel doesn't bond to glass well, so wood is the choice. Just buy regular 5/8 exterior grade plywood, and it will be fine.

Don't worry about what other people call your car. People can be real asses, especially those who know nothing. I would be proud to have your bucket.

And when you start getting discouraged, get away from it for a day, or week, or month. Building a car should be fun, not work. My Son is getting discouraged at his '29 build, but he doesn't realize how far he has come in only one year. Building, or rebuilding a car takes time, lots of time. But it is a hobby, and you should enjoy the work as it is done for relaxation. (At least I keep telling myself that )

Post more pix of every aspect of the car, and well tell you what we think is good and what needs changed.

Don

PS Total performance and Speedway have inexpensive pedal setups that mount to the frame

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

You are doing all the right things by asking questions. We all do that, and I am going to ask for help pretty soon when I start building my Chevy, because I am a Ford guy, and it's been 30 years since I have built one.

First off all, how did the brake people determine what spindles you had? There are no MM11 spindles for a straight axle. You either have early ford, 49-54 chevy, or Total Perfomance. You need to know what you have, and you need, in most cases to make some mods to get the new discs to work on any of those. Shoot some pix and post them of the spindles, and we'll identify them.

Yes, the 1 inch is too thick. Weight, plus it won't tab well to the glass body. You need to leave a gap all the way around the new floor, so the glass won't draw in, and the floor will put a pattern on the outside of the body, even after it is painted.

No one makes a steel floor, and you wouldn't want one. Steel doesn't bond to glass well, so wood is the choice. Just buy regular 5/8 exterior grade plywood, and it will be fine.

Don't worry about what other people call your car. People can be real asses, especially those who know nothing. I would be proud to have your bucket.

And when you start getting discouraged, get away from it for a day, or week, or month. Building a car should be fun, not work. My Son is getting discouraged at his '29 build, but he doesn't realize how far he has come in only one year. Building, or rebuilding a car takes time, lots of time. But it is a hobby, and you should enjoy the work as it is done for relaxation. (At least I keep telling myself that )

Post more pix of every aspect of the car, and well tell you what we think is good and what needs changed.

Don

PS Total performance and Speedway have inexpensive pedal setups that mount to the frame

he could also have '37-'48 Ford spindles.

you could install the floor just like it was, some do it like that, most fiberglass the wood in. by pre fab, I mean they sell you an exzact fit peice that fits in your floor section, has the trans section cut out where the tunnel goes ( that is fiberglass, buy 1 from them if u don't have 1. ) you could make whatever you needed, by making your own template and cutting it out, use marine grade plywood, it rots out slower and is what most use, and T buckets pre fab floor is made of it.

Hey Don, thanks again. Can you help me understand what you mean by "so the glass won't draw in? and "a pattern on the outside of the body? Forgive my ignorance.

Wood an glass have different rates of expansion. If you glass the wood to the body, it may lead to a "shadow" of the edge of the floor pan visible on the outside of the car.

Pre-fabbed plywood would be a pre-cut floor made for your car. However, unless you know who made the body, I'm not sure how you would find the correct one. Cutting a floor to fit is not difficult - but marine plywood is a good idea. Painting it with a marine polyurethane varnish is a good idea also.

Those spindles are scary as hell. If someone welded cast iron to make those spindles, they better be darn good at it.

The steering geometry could concievably work. With the tie rod in front of the axle, the Ackerman would be off, but that would only cause a tire to scrub turning a corner. The caster could be easily set, since that's just the tilt of the axle. Toe in is no problem either. The only thing that I'm not sure of is the camber. If it goes straight, the geometry is probably reasonable, but those cobbled up spindles (and I'm not dissing your ride - just the builder) would worry me a lot. If anything happens to one part on one of the spindles, you're in deep doo.

Suggest that you take the wheel off, and take several photos: one looking straight into the spindle, one from the front, one from the rear, and one from the top. If there are welds, try to show them too.

Wow, i've really missed reading "chit" like this! Didn't Brian have a thread on fiberglassing???? Yes, i'm sure he did it on part of his interior...oh, yeah, it was upholstry panels...interesting tho

http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...t=13753/COLOR]

You all have been a great help. After a short break from the project, I cleaned things up a little and made it a little more photo-ready. I'll remove a front wheel later today and snap some more pics for you guys to make fun of... errrr, I mean constructively ciriticize... And by the looks of some of the components on my ride, you folks just might be saving my life.
Heres a couple of the motor and my "high-class top-knoch workshop"... any details about what I have here would be greatly apreciated.

Originally Posted by DennyW

You need to change that alternator belt for sure. See how it is sunk down in the pulleys ?

not sure what you mean exactly by "sunk down", I just replaced the Alt belt about 3 miles ogo. However, I was thinking of trying to relocate the alt somewhere lower, but as is, it is snug, and seems to run and charge perfectly... thanks for the input DennyW!

Hope you didn't feel we were making fun of you or your car. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, personally, I am impressed that you were smart enough to realize there were some issues like these, and coming forward to ask questions.

If we come across as dumping on your car, it is just friendly jabbing. Like we said originally, it really looks like a decent car, and we would all probably not mind owning it. Especially at the price you paid,

The few things we see, like the spindles, are intriqing to us, because of how the builder did it. Ingenious, but misguided.

Post those pix when the wheel comes off. I'm dying to see how he did the upper portion of the spindle and got the bushings to fit the proper size for the ford kingpins.

Don